Concern about frozen samples

Discussion in 'ATI Aquaristik' started by Randy Holmes-Farley, Feb 6, 2018.

  1. Randy Holmes-Farley

    Randy Holmes-Farley Reef Chemist Staff Member Team R2R R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Article Contributor Expert Contributor

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    Thanks for doing the experiment. :)

    He mentioned it was -40 deg C where he lives, and the concern is seawater doesn't fully freeze until below -36 deg C. His may not have gotten that cold , bit it might possibly have. :)
     
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  2. ATI North America

    ATI North America Well-Known Member R2R Supporter Gold Sponsor Partner Member 2019

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    So couldn't one simply take it to the PO directly instead of leaving it outside? Oh wait the gas in his car froze so he can't go anywhere. o_O

    I mean really this is like having a conversation about if cannibals eat clowns or not because what if they taste funny? With a tiny bit of care on the end of the user its a moot point.
     
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  3. Finhead

    Finhead Active Member

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    Ah Canada easily gets that cold for extended periods of time. Canada post trucks do not store there parcels heated, they would be frozen a lot longer than 24 hrs since Xpress post overseas is usually 7+ days.
     
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  4. Finhead

    Finhead Active Member

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    lol frozen gas. It's gotten down to -52 here in Edmonton, propane would freeze yep but gas nope. lol
     
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  5. Want2BS8ed

    Want2BS8ed Active Member R2R Supporter

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    Never heard that one before - that'll be tucked away for future use!

    Appreciate your getting back with us. I'm still curious regarding the the question though. I'll go out on a limb and suggest we are more likely to see a frozen sample than we are a clown eating cannibal! LOL

    Even here in Virginia we can see temperatures dip below the -20C degree range (not often, thank goodness!), but let's not forget the samples are shipped from California to Germany by air. It's entirely possible that an entire batch of samples could be exposed to much cooler temperatures inadvertently than the typical 10C degrees in a cargo hold - something on the order of -56C to -57C degrees at 36,000 feet... brrrrrrrrrr!

    M
     
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  6. Cory

    Cory Valuable Member R2R Supporter Article Contributor

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    Poasibly above in the airplane. And when I sent out a sample to marinlabs it was -40 C. Canadian winters can be brutal. Gas doesnt freeze here lol.
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2018
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  7. mdbannister

    mdbannister Ahh...the Reef Life Staff Member Team R2R R2R Supporter Photo of the Month Award R2R Excellence Award Partner Member 2019 R2R Secret Santa Build Thread Contributor Article Contributor

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    Good questions! I'd be interested in seeing a comparison at -40 C. That would definitely be worth reviewing IMHO.
     
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  8. Clownman727

    Clownman727 Active Member Tampa Bay Reef Keepers

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    If your worried that the sample may freeze and you think it will effect the results then add a heat pack to the box. Problem solved. You are welcome
     
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  9. Randy Holmes-Farley

    Randy Holmes-Farley Reef Chemist Staff Member Team R2R R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Article Contributor Expert Contributor

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    NO, the problem is a company that says publicly that there's no problem with freezing without sufficient supporting evidence or understanding of the potential problem. They clearly knew nothing about the details of what happens in freezing seawater or the temperatures their customers might experience or they would not have made the earlier statements about NSW getting an ice coating and not changing, or having done a incomplete experiment as proof of their earlier claim.

    They may still be right, but don't have the needed evidence to make such a blanket statement, and then to belittle customers who are trying to understand is really, pretty crappy. :(

    IMO, this is an unacceptable response to a legitimate customer concern:

    "So couldn't one simply take it to the PO directly instead of leaving it outside? Oh wait the gas in his car froze so he can't go anywhere. o_O

    I mean really this is like having a conversation about if cannibals eat clowns or not because what if they taste funny? With a tiny bit of care on the end of the user its a moot point."
     
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  10. Clownman727

    Clownman727 Active Member Tampa Bay Reef Keepers

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    I like the intensity!! I have another claim by triton for you to research. My test came back low on iodine and this is their reasons for dosing . I have read other posts by you on the subject and you claim that dosing iodine has no effect that you could see.
    From triton:
    We have detected a lack of iodine.
    A Iodine dose can have the following benefits for your aquarium:
    - Improves overall health of SPS corals and macroalgae
    - Promotes metabolic processes in the reef aquarium
    - Can be helpful against parasites and inhibit their reproduction
     
  11. ATI North America

    ATI North America Well-Known Member R2R Supporter Gold Sponsor Partner Member 2019

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    Randy I am sorry you took that the wrong way, I am trying to make light of a concern that I don't understand. I stated early on this was not something I claim to know about. My comment was clearly tongue in cheek and since I am not a chemist I don't have legitimate input on the answer. I have made this clear.

    I don't know how the Canadian post works, but if you drop the package off at the PO rather than an outdoor drop box I imagine it would stay inside the vast majority of this time traveling to Germany. But I don't know Canada post any more than I know the temperature at which seawater precipitates.

    Please share with me how Dr Ben can do a complete study in your eyes and I would be happy to relay it here.
     
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  12. Greenstreet.1

    Greenstreet.1 Valuable Member

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    ? @ATI North America why can’t you just ask Dr Ben to join the conversation I think it will make things a lot easier for all including yourself. Just and idea.
     
  13. ATI North America

    ATI North America Well-Known Member R2R Supporter Gold Sponsor Partner Member 2019

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    When I sent him the request I asked him to either address it here or provide me a response.
     
  14. Randy Holmes-Farley

    Randy Holmes-Farley Reef Chemist Staff Member Team R2R R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Article Contributor Expert Contributor

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    Thanks. :)

    IMO, if you guys did the same experiment you reported, but left it at -40 deg C for 24 h, that would be sufficient. Things are still precipitating down to at least -36 deg C or so.

    FWIW, it is the trace elements I am most concerned about, since very small amounts of precipitates can reduce them substantially. Starting with a real tank sample that had more of these showing up, compared to the NSW samples that have many of these not detected, could be more useful.

    Thanks again.

    Randy
     
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  15. bbgobie

    bbgobie Member

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    Not that I would ever question Randy, but I do have a question about this thread.

    I thought the way these analysis' worked was essentially "heating up" the samples to some really high extreme and they break down. So while they can give you an analysis of something like you had X amount of calcium in your sample, they can't actually tell you if the normal "dissolved calcium" in our sample water is at the correct level because there could be something like a coral skeleton in the sample that obviously contains calcium.

    I use the quotes just because I'm not sure I have the right terms, and in general my question might be totally off base. Just trying to understand everything better and think my understanding of the test must be wrong, otherwise when something freezes or precipitates because of freezing the "element" should still be in the bottle?
     
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  16. Randy Holmes-Farley

    Randy Holmes-Farley Reef Chemist Staff Member Team R2R R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Article Contributor Expert Contributor

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    You are right that anything getting sucked up is detected, regardless of form. But solids are sometimes removed before analysis (Triton roughly clarified for me in a similar thread what sizes get filtered out before analysis, I don't know about ATI) and anything that stuck to the sides of the container, as a precipitated material might, wouldn't get assayed. :)
     
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  17. bbgobie

    bbgobie Member

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    Thanks, that makes so much sense I can't believe it never occurred to me!
     
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  18. ATI North America

    ATI North America Well-Known Member R2R Supporter Gold Sponsor Partner Member 2019

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    Randy I am trying to understand what you are trying to say let me say it back to you :) You want to use an aquarium sample not NSW in hopes that the trace elements are elevated, thus allowing a greater change due to precipitation? Having more to start with will demonstrate a larger change? Am I understanding it correctly?
     
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  19. Randy Holmes-Farley

    Randy Holmes-Farley Reef Chemist Staff Member Team R2R R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Article Contributor Expert Contributor

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    Pretty much, yes. But not a larger change. Any possibility of detecting a change. If you start with a sample that has most trace elements undetectable (as did your NSW sample), then it is impossible to say if there was an effect. I understand there are limitations to this, but a real tank sample with real tank levels of organics as well as trace elements would be the optimal test (IMO).

    Your NSW sample has no detectable fluoride, nickel, manganese, arsenic, beryllium, cobalt, chromium, iron, copper, selenium, silver, zinc, antimony, bismuth, lead, cadmium, lanthanum, thallium, titanium, tungsten, or mercury. There's no way to know if these are impacted if they start undetectable.

    No sample will have all of those, but many reefers have some amount of several of them. It would be nice to see at least the most interesting and common ones, like copper, zinc, manganese, etc.
     
  20. ATI North America

    ATI North America Well-Known Member R2R Supporter Gold Sponsor Partner Member 2019

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    While this is very OT, I want to say that I am on vacation all next week and will not be as responsive. I have written Dr Ben requesting the new test and will keep an eye out for a response next week. Please just be patient if I am slow! Cheers
     
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