Concern about frozen samples

Discussion in 'ATI Aquaristik' started by Randy Holmes-Farley, Feb 6, 2018.

  1. Want2BS8ed

    Want2BS8ed Active Member R2R Supporter

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    Helpful to know.

    Hopefully Dr Ben can chime in here before you return.

    Enjoy yourself!

    M
     
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  2. Randy Holmes-Farley

    Randy Holmes-Farley Reef Chemist Staff Member Team R2R R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Article Contributor Expert Contributor

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    OK, thanks. :)
     
  3. mdbannister

    mdbannister Ahh...the Reef Life Staff Member Team R2R R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award SCMAS Member Article Contributor Build Thread Contributor Partner Member 2018

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    Cool! Looking forward to the results on this.
     
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  4. ATI North America

    ATI North America Well-Known Member R2R Supporter Gold Sponsor

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    From Dr Ben:
    "
    we can do a test like this. But it needs some time to prepare. Also, I only have a freezer that is capable to go to -25°C.

    Best regards,

    Ben"

    So he will likely have to find a place or buy something to pull this off. Maybe the local icecream shop can freeze some random vials of liquid :)

    Or perhaps dry ice?
     
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  5. Cory

    Cory Valuable Member R2R Supporter Article Contributor

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    Dry ice would work pretty well imo.
     
  6. siggy

    siggy Valuable Member R2R Supporter Build Thread Contributor Partner Member 2018

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    mount.jpg
     
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  7. Want2BS8ed

    Want2BS8ed Active Member R2R Supporter

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    Ah, man... now I can't get that song out of my head.

    The hills are alive with the sound of music...

    ...but alas, that's Austria - ATI is in Germany!

    M
     
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  8. siggy

    siggy Valuable Member R2R Supporter Build Thread Contributor Partner Member 2018

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    the alps share the border..you'll have to rewatch the MOVIE!....or do I?
     
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  9. Sleepydoc

    Sleepydoc Active Member

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    Well, all I can say is if Dr. Ben isn’t wearing lederhosen, I’m going to be very disappointed!

    Even if their freezer only goes down to -25º C, holding a sample at that temp for 48 hrs or so should at least give a reasonable idea and cover the majority of users. I’m a bit curious though as to just how cold it gets in the cargo hold of a cargo plane. The temperature at altitude is quite cold, but it may be that the temperature never fully equilibrates, either. The other factor is that the composition of tank water is generally different from natural sea water.

    Perhaps the best test wold be to take 2 samples of mixed tank water, hold one in the lab at room temp and ship the other to the states and back, then compare the results.
     
  10. Want2BS8ed

    Want2BS8ed Active Member R2R Supporter

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    This is true, that might be Germany in the background! LOL Movie was filmed in Salzburg which IS on the border.

    Cool fact, you can either ride a cable car or cog railway up Zugspitze, the highest peak in Germany and there is a walkway over to Austria - breathtaking trip if you get the chance.

    But alas, we are still on the southeast corner of Germany. Hamm, and ATI, is in the northwest...

    Ha! Head to Munich in September, the only people not in lederhosen are either Italian tourist or women wearing a dirndl!

    Answered that one the other day - I am a walking tome of useless knowledge! :)

    Belly space on passenger aircraft are typically pressurized and heated. Cargo planes really depend on the carrier, but usually you won't go below 10C degrees even in an unpressurized compartment.

    Back to the topic, I would prefer to see the sample truly frozen - I think it's the only way we can truly answer the question.

    M
     
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  11. Randy Holmes-Farley

    Randy Holmes-Farley Reef Chemist Staff Member Team R2R R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Article Contributor Expert Contributor

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    Thanks for doing this.

    FWIW, any local university will have a -80 deg C freezer. Maybe you have some local friends?
     
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  12. ATI North America

    ATI North America Well-Known Member R2R Supporter Gold Sponsor

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    "Hi Keith,

    I've done the following test as wanted:

    I ve added some nickel, chromium, cobalt and zink into one of our display tanks (EDTA free salts). These elements represent the most common contaminants of european reef tanks.

    After 1 hour I took a sample of that tank and measured the pH of the water (pH = 8.05). I've divided the rest of the sample into two smaller portions. One portion was stored at - 25°C the other was stored at room temperature 20-25°C.

    After 5 days in the freezer, I´ve melted the frozen sample. I´ve analysed both samples the same day with our titrator, IC and ICP-OES.

    Here are the results:

    + 25°C

    http://lab.atiaquaristik.com/share/1edeb4f39ca719a129f7

    - 25°C
    http://lab.atiaquaristik.com/share/2f9cc36730c787218d44

    There are almost no differences between the results. Both results lead to the same recomendation.

    Best regards,

    Dr. Ben"
     
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  13. Randy Holmes-Farley

    Randy Holmes-Farley Reef Chemist Staff Member Team R2R R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Article Contributor Expert Contributor

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    Thanks very much for doing the test and the results should alleviate many peoples concerns. :)

    One question, copper seems to rise from none detected in the room temperature sample (which from your data on lower limit of detection means less than 0.63 to 0.74 ug/L) to 1.15 ug/L in the frozen and thawed sample.

    Is that within the range of your expected variation?

    Thanks

    Randy
     
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  14. 7hogwarts

    7hogwarts Active Member R2R Supporter

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    Great interesting topic. Following.
     
  15. Tapio

    Tapio Active Member

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    I am following and have done a Triton test too. But the more I analyze and try to mess with things, the less success I have. Just simply doing what I have been doing for the last 25 years, keeping SPS successfully and pay not too much attention to detail works for me.
     
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  16. ATI North America

    ATI North America Well-Known Member R2R Supporter Gold Sponsor

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    "Hi Randy,


    You´re welcome.


    We do have two ICP machines of the same kind.


    The older system is only used to measure seawater samples of our customers. This system is working well, but it is a challenge to measure all of the samples that arrive at our lab at the same day. The published LLOD´s belong to this system.


    The newer machine is working very well if we test fresh water, but we do not reach the published LLOD´s with this machine at the moment. One examples is copper (see attached picture). Therefore we use this machine only for the measurement of RO water samples, internal controls and samples.


    I´ve checked the raw data of the +25°C sample. It showed 0,87-0,96 µg copper/l. This is a normal difference if you scratch at the LLOD and if the background of the signal is busy.


    Best regards,


    Ben
    +25°C LLOD copper.png "
     
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  17. Cory

    Cory Valuable Member R2R Supporter Article Contributor

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    Id really like to see -36 C or colder :)

    How does your machine get nearly identical redults from Na and S? icp results ive seen from users dont get that close. Usually 3-5% difference if i remember right. :)
     
  18. Lousybreed

    Lousybreed Member

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    I think the temperatures in Canada are irrelevant for this argument since we could be dealing with much colder temps during flight. I am concerned about the temperature while the samples are being flown to Germany. As someone stated it could be around -60 degrees for the trip. I think we should use a -80 degree freezer (we have 5 of them at my work, as Randy mentioned they are quite commonly used) or dry ice for 24 hr to see what happens. Who knows it could be nothing.
     
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  19. Want2BS8ed

    Want2BS8ed Active Member R2R Supporter

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    Understand 10C degrees is typical in flight, while the outside air may approach -58C degrees, getting that low in a cargo hold would be exceptional.

    That having been said, the results of a truly frozen sample would be interesting.

    I think it's safe to say I speak for many Dr. Ben and Kevin in expressing our appreciation for your openness and willingness to expand our body of knowledge.

    M
     
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  20. Lousybreed

    Lousybreed Member

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    I agree it’s great to explore this. Also good to know about in flight temps. I think we are leaning towards we are good to go. Maybe we need to worry about those Canadian land temps after all.
     
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