Confusion about formalin long term dosing

[pureconcept]

I have all my fish in qt while my tank is going fallow. I am at 2 weeks of copper power at 2.5ppm but would like to switch to formalin. I
Watched a youtube video from tidal gardens about qt and it recommended using 1 ml per 10 gallons then 50 percent water changes every 2 days replacing what was taken out at 1 ml per 10 gallons. This would be for 10 days.My confusion is because i read that formalin evaporates and needs to be replenished every 2 days. If this is true then after the first 2 days my levels will be half the recommended 1 ml per 10 due to me only replenishing the amount i removed. Does anyone know what amount i should be adding? Also i read i need to keep copper levels for 4 weeks to prevent reinfection. Should i wait 4 extra days before starting the formalin just so the total trwatment is over a 4 week period?.
Here is an abbreviated history for those who are curious how i ended up here.
I had about 10 fish die in a few weeks with no signs other than swimming in the power heads and fast breathing. I was told by a few people to treat it as if its velvet due to the high death rate and lack of physical signs. Right before i took all the fish and placed i to qt i introduced 2 new clownfish. i dosed the qt with prazipro and copper.While ramping up the copper dosage i lost another 3 fish then about a week into over 2 ppm levels i lost 2 fish including 1 of the new clowns. This time however they had skin damage that looked like brook to me. Im wondering if i introduced brook right before the copper treatment. I want to now treat with formalin after 2 weeks of copper.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I have all my fish in qt while my tank is going fallow. I am at 2 weeks of copper power at 2.5ppm but would like to switch to formalin. I
Watched a youtube video from tidal gardens about qt and it recommended using 1 ml per 10 gallons then 50 percent water changes every 2 days replacing what was taken out at 1 ml per 10 gallons. This would be for 10 days.My confusion is because i read that formalin evaporates and needs to be replenished every 2 days. If this is true then after the first 2 days my levels will be half the recommended 1 ml per 10 due to me only replenishing the amount i removed. Does anyone know what amount i should be adding? Also i read i need to keep copper levels for 4 weeks to prevent reinfection. Should i wait 4 extra days before starting the formalin just so the total trwatment is over a 4 week period?.
Here is an abbreviated history for those who are curious how i ended up here.
I had about 10 fish die in a few weeks with no signs other than swimming in the power heads and fast breathing. I was told by a few people to treat it as if its velvet due to the high death rate and lack of physical signs. Right before i took all the fish and placed i to qt i introduced 2 new clownfish. i dosed the qt with prazipro and copper.While ramping up the copper dosage i lost another 3 fish then about a week into over 2 ppm levels i lost 2 fish including 1 of the new clowns. This time however they had skin damage that looked like brook to me. Im wondering if i introduced brook right before the copper treatment. I want to now treat with formalin after 2 weeks of copper.

That formalin amount works out to be between 25 to 30 mg/l, which is a standard static dose. Everyone hedges their bets when it comes to how fast formalin dissipates from aquarium water - there are variables such as bioload and temperature that change the timing, so people usually add in some water change factor like this - it is safer.

Brooklynella is the only thing I use formalin for any more (except as a dip). It will show up on your clowns as the typical white slime. If you aren't seeing that, it probably isn't Brook.

It sure sounds like you had Amyloodinum/velvet, if the fish seem stable now, I would continue for a full 30 days copper if you can.

jay

 

[pureconcept]

Thank you for the reply. Its a great thing you do keeping this forum up to help people.
Of the last two that died. 1 looked almost like skin was peeling off And the clown that died last had some white slime sloughing off but it was also stuck on the powerhead when i found it and it was more on one side. I dont know if it was just the power head messing with it that caused the look. Im just afraid of the last of my fiah dying. Its been sad watching so many die and i only have 8 left to protect. I was hoping switching from copper wouldnt hurt since formalin also treats velvet but when compared to the hanna copper checker i bought it seems like such a wishy washy means of monitoring and maintaining levels. Would it be too stressful to treat the fish with formalin while keeping the copper levels or is this too stressful. Wheni research it some people say formalin is gentle with aeration and others say just the formalin alone is stressful and shortens lifespans

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Thank you for the reply. Its a great thing you do keeping this forum up to help people.
Of the last two that died. 1 looked almost like skin was peeling off And the clown that died last had some white slime sloughing off but it was also stuck on the powerhead when i found it and it was more on one side. I dont know if it was just the power head messing with it that caused the look. Im just afraid of the last of my fiah dying. Its been sad watching so many die and i only have 8 left to protect. I was hoping switching from copper wouldnt hurt since formalin also treats velvet but when compared to the hanna copper checker i bought it seems like such a wishy washy means of monitoring and maintaining levels. Would it be too stressful to treat the fish with formalin while keeping the copper levels or is this too stressful. Wheni research it some people say formalin is gentle with aeration and others say just the formalin alone is stressful and shortens lifespans

That the mucus was stuck to the power head is a key observation, I hear that very often with Brook infections.
Disregard what you hear about fish dosed with formalin dying after 18 months, etc. That’s hogwash! I’ve used formalin in commercial settings for 45 years, at a types of doses and applications, that doesn’t happen. If formalin harms fish, it is acutely, within hours or days of the dose and can be traced back to some dose error, or fish that were too sick to treat.
Jay

 

[lagatbezan]

I agree with Jay.
I recently dealt with the same issue where there was skin peeling on the fish and attached to the intake of the overflow. See pic.
Did 50 min formalin bath and moved the fish to a new qt and symptoms appeared again after 5 days. So a single treatment didn’t work. What worked for me was doing a bath followed by adding formalin 1ml/10g to the qt every 48 hours and then doing another bath in 7 days and moving into a clean qt.
Do you have another qt you can use? If so I would say take them out of copper and do a formalin bath and transfer to the new sterile qt.

 

[Lost in the Sauce]

That formalin amount works out to be between 25 to 30 mg/l, which is a standard static dose. Everyone hedges their bets when it comes to how fast formalin dissipates from aquarium water - there are variables such as bioload and temperature that change the timing, so people usually add in some water change factor like this - it is safer.

Brooklynella is the only thing I use formalin for any more (except as a dip). It will show up on your clowns as the typical white slime. If you aren't seeing that, it probably isn't Brook.

It sure sounds like you had Amyloodinum/velvet, if the fish seem stable now, I would continue for a full 30 days copper if you can.

jay

Hi Jay.

Have you seen the title gardens video on quarantine?

I also just watched that this last week and was very interested when the woman was talking about using formalin as a replacement for copper, not losing any effectiveness and only having to treat for 10 days.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Hi Jay.

Have you seen the title gardens video on quarantine?

I also just watched that this last week and was very interested when the woman was talking about using formalin as a replacement for copper, not losing any effectiveness and only having to treat for 10 days.

No, I haven't seen their video. I have a LONG history with using formalin. Thirty years ago, it was my go-to treatment for many disease issues - protozoans and flukes mostly. I had a Hach test kit for measuring residual formalin, and that helped ensure I wasn't overdosing. Over time, I moved away from that and back to copper for most marine protozoan issues, and either hypo or prazi for flukes.

I still have all my old records and references regarding formalin use; it is an interesting chemical as the dose is graduated based on a number of specific variables; dose time, concentration, temperature and dissolved oxygen.

It's funny to me that what's considered "old school", tends to come around again as new folks learn about it (grin). I see that with Metronidazole, chloroquine, malachite green, etc.


Jay

 

[Fishjunkie]

Tuning in bc I'm dosing with formalin right now. Couple questions I do 1ml for each 10 gallon in qt do I leave them in it for 2 days? I've read it depletes the oxygen and I don't want the fish to suffocate I have a air stone but is that enough? After 2 days do a dip at what ml? I've read .6? or 12 drops per 10 gallon but wouldn't them sitting in the 1ml for 2 days be stronger than that? During the dip clean and sterilize my other qt tank then put them back in there at the 1ml per 10 gallon solution for 2 more days ? Is that to much formalin or what? And I've read use freshwater for the dip and formalin between ttm is this ok I know it's not for 30/40 minutes but for 5 minutes? I'm just trying to get some clarification and everywhere I read it's never enough I need details like a walkthrough by a professional I want to make sure my fish survive and live long healthy lives can I get some help


Edit-- what do you do for beneficial bacteria to keep ammonia and nitrite/nitrate levels down if your main tank has brook can't use that water so what could I do I don't want them to die of ammonia poisoning or anything while im trying to cure them and my clowns are having some rapid breathing what can help that

 

[Jay Hemdal]

What disease issue are you trying to treat?

Yes, you should always aerate the water well (not just circulate it with a pump) when dosing formalin - the formaldehyde depletes some oxygen, but the methanol used as a stabilizer grows bacteria that can also consume oxygen.

My trouble is that I dose formalin on a ppm/time basis, but you are using ml per gallon, and it is tough to convert those figures:

0.94 ml per ten gallons is 25ppm, and that is considered a 24 hour dose for formalin. If you don't have a pipette, try using 18 drops.

The 0.6 dose is for a one hour dip, but it is for one gallon, not ten. That gives a concentration of around 150 ppm.

Don't use ammonia reducing chemicals when dosing formalin, as they also strip oxygen from the water. You're best best is to use "bacteria in a bottle" like Dr. Tims or Fritz products.

Jay

 

[Fishjunkie]

What disease issue are you trying to treat?

Yes, you should always aerate the water well (not just circulate it with a pump) when dosing formalin - the formaldehyde depletes some oxygen, but the methanol used as a stabilizer grows bacteria that can also consume oxygen.

My trouble is that I dose formalin on a ppm/time basis, but you are using ml per gallon, and it is tough to convert those figures:

0.94 ml per ten gallons is 25ppm, and that is considered a 24 hour dose for formalin. If you don't have a pipette, try using 18 drops.

The 0.6 dose is for a one hour dip, but it is for one gallon, not ten. That gives a concentration of around 150 ppm.

Don't use ammonia reducing chemicals when dosing formalin, as they also strip oxygen from the water. You're best best is to use "bacteria in a bottle" like Dr. Tims or Fritz products.

Jay

I am treating brook and how much is ok for them to sit in for 2 days? I have a syringe I pulled up to 1ml how much would 18 drops be? Or is the 18 drops for the quick bath? Sorry I'm just trying to understand. Is one air stone enough it's a 5 gal tank half full for qt?

 

[Fishjunkie]

What disease issue are you trying to treat?

Yes, you should always aerate the water well (not just circulate it with a pump) when dosing formalin - the formaldehyde depletes some oxygen, but the methanol used as a stabilizer grows bacteria that can also consume oxygen.

My trouble is that I dose formalin on a ppm/time basis, but you are using ml per gallon, and it is tough to convert those figures:

0.94 ml per ten gallons is 25ppm, and that is considered a 24 hour dose for formalin. If you don't have a pipette, try using 18 drops.

The 0.6 dose is for a one hour dip, but it is for one gallon, not ten. That gives a concentration of around 150 ppm.

Don't use ammonia reducing chemicals when dosing formalin, as they also strip oxygen from the water. You're best best is to use "bacteria in a bottle" like Dr. Tims or Fritz products.

Jay

What methanol is it in the formalin? Can j dose with prime to dechlorinate the water

 

[Jay Hemdal]

What methanol is it in the formalin? Can j dose with prime to dechlorinate the water

I wouldn’t use prime, if you must, use it in the freshwater you are using for the change, don’t use it to control ammonia. This issue is not well known yet - it might be ok, but I wouldn’t risk it.
Methanol is used as a stabilizer in formalin.
Jay

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I am treating brook and how much is ok for them to sit in for 2 days? I have a syringe I pulled up to 1ml how much would 18 drops be? Or is the 18 drops for the quick bath? Sorry I'm just trying to understand. Is one air stone enough it's a 5 gal tank half full for qt?

One air stone is fine. Generally, 20 drops is equal to 1 ml. Using a syringe is much more accurate though.
Jay

 

[Fishjunkie]

I wouldn’t use prime, if you must, use it in the freshwater you are using for the change, don’t use it to control ammonia. This issue is not well known yet - it might be ok, but I wouldn’t risk it.
Methanol is used as a stabilizer in formalin.
Jay

What could I use to dechlorinate the water? Do you know a idea what could happen using prime and formalin bc I have been that's the only thing I have to dechlorinate the water and to keep ammonia down

 

[Jay Hemdal]

What could I use to dechlorinate the water? Do you know a idea what could happen using prime and formalin bc I have been that's the only thing I have to dechlorinate the water and to keep ammonia down

If you use just enough prime to dechlorinate tap water, you’re fine. If you add to much, or add it to a tank with formalin, the worry is that it will lower the dissolved oxygen more, and then in combination with the low oxygen from the formalin. Remember, this isn’t a proven issue, more of a possible issue.
Jay

 

[Fishjunkie]

Ok do you know anything I can add to help with rising ammonia nitrites nitrates or does the methanol control all that my fish are doing good in the qt tank just a little heavy breathing I'm giving them 48 hrs then I'm doing another dip and let them sit in some more formalin I just wanna take precautions I've added some microbacteria starter for cycling new tanks to be safe is that bad

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Watch your ammonia level, that is the one that will harm your fish. Try to keep the ammonia below 0.25 ppm, and if it hits 0.5 ppm, you need to change water o lower it. You can help lower ammonia by adding the bacteria cultures, but those take a few days to begin to work.
Jay

 

[Fishjunkie]

Wouldn't that be pointless if I'm changing the water to clean and sterilize the tank every 2 days? What can I do to help the heavy breathing

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Wouldn't that be pointless if I'm changing the water to clean and sterilize the tank every 2 days? What can I do to help the heavy breathing

No - the bacteria lives in the filter material, and you shouldn't be sterilizing that every two days. Since you are trying to outrun Brook, that is going to be an issue. You may need to dip and move every 24 hours to stay ahead of the ammonia build-up.
I have to wonder though - what other symptoms are you seeing besides rapid breathing?

jay

 

[Fishjunkie]

No - the bacteria lives in the filter material, and you shouldn't be sterilizing that every two days. Since you are trying to outrun Brook, that is going to be an issue. You may need to dip and move every 24 hours to stay ahead of the ammonia build-up.
I have to wonder though - what other symptoms are you seeing besides rapid breathing?

jay

I've read to give the fish 48 hrs to recuperate between the formalin is 24 hrs ok? And it's just the rapid breathing they are swimming around not eating much but I guess bc they are sick but I did a ammonia check and it's showing yellow so no ammonia present atm