Contradictions

[REEFTIDE]

Find someone with an amazing tank and ask them what they do.
There are a lot of youtubers that are purely regurgitating information they've seen somewhere and have never actually kept a nice reef tank. The reality is that stability is not sexy, it doesn't attract the masses like they need something to do.
Be slow and steady with your changes, start simple and then move on to more complex things.
Me personally, I wouldn't listen to youtube I would find an amazing build thread on here and see what they do.
I can bet you most of them aren't buying the newest and hottest tech and replacing it in all the time just keeping it really really stable and taking care of the reef's needs.
You will learn with time what works for you and it'll be easier seeing through the mirage people present

 

[VanIsleReefTherapy]

When you’re told something that sounds controversial but then you are given four links of 250 reef tanks from other people running the claim and working well, that you can read the outcomes for yourself, it isn’t controversial it’s proven before your eyes


when you are told something in a big paragraph written first person, with no links from 250 at home reef tanks running the claim, that’s controversial.


often what makes a claim such as ‘never test for ammonia after cycling’ seem controversial is when you’re given the proof links, but don’t read them. Helps to seek out proof for claims especially if they’re given to you at the time of the claim. It’s impossible to align 250 reefs in other peoples homes with bad science. Bad science will kill their reefs, good science keeps them alive.

what works for other peoples reefs in pattern is solid science.

Yes, absolutely. I have read proof links meticulously and I am solid in that kind of response. It's just rare. In fact, only once has that been offered to me and I was very grateful. I don't doubt that piece of advice and the care that was taken to explain it to me. I'm just a bit frustrated by the folks telling me my tank isn't cycled. Specifically in a post where I asked what could have bitten my fish the day before it died!

 

[907_Reefer]

The internet is an interesting place! Especially with cycling debates, those get hot and heavy on here sometimes it seems..

Do you have an LFS you can use as sort of a local mentor? My humble advice would only be to pick a tank or reefer to emulate, take most other advice with a grain of salt, take your time and develop your own opinions slowly. And don't give up!

 

[brandon429]

People here are vying for best practices science and offering what they think is best and pretty much any method you read will work temporarily.

The key is the long term game

Seek information not just from great reef tank owners, but owners of old reef tanks


owners of magazine companies, book authors, publishing editors, speakers from macna podium talks and old school reef tank troubleshooters all read things posted on this site. They watch for and reflect on the trending and updates posted here, some input back into the site and folks with decades of combined reefing experience all position for best practices, what a mix.


you can find amazing tenets of truth repeating in bulk web postings but you have to sift continually. Patterns emerge over time for claims made. Best practices rise to the top and don't fade back down.

 

[Chrisv.]

Pro tip. When getting advice on a forum, do whatever you can to avoid advice from people who have been doing this for fewer than 5 years. For folks who have been doing this a while...take advice from the folks who have tanks you like.

It's alarming to me how many things the BRS people preach as gospel. It's amazing how many people are willing to regurgitate someone they read online vs just admit that in a particular area, they don't have first hand experience.

 

[VanIsleReefTherapy]

Thanks to everyone who has empathized with my exasperation, encouraged me to trust myself and my own critical judgement, offered me good advice about taking advice and overall let me have my little rant.

I do have some formed opinions of my own after all the sifting I've done in recent months, certain things I think should stay in the ocean, the fact that my tank is definitely cycled, that detritovors don't generally eat health living things, etc. In moments of stress or doubt, the chorus of contradiction just gets harder for a novice.

I knew I wasn't alone with this particular moment of frustration and discouragement. I was trying to be a bit humorous about it all, and I really do understand, in an intellectual way, why all this contradiction exists.

This thread, and it's rapid gathering of responses has helped remind me why we lean into community, even with all the contradictions. It's helpful just to know we aren't alone in our frustrations.

 

[VanIsleReefTherapy]

you can find amazing tenets of truth repeating in bulk web postings but you have to sift continually. Patterns emerge over time for claims made. Best practices rise to the top and don't fade back down.

Yes. This. This is how I decide a lot of things. I scan everything I can find on the topic and sift it for the repeated trends. Mostly I've been successful and confident when I do this regarding stocking questions. It's a bit harder with process level stuff.

I've definitely accepted that there are many, very different, paths to success and I will have to find my own way. It's just hard sometimes, and that's okay. I just wish learning didn't have to involve things dying quite so often.

I don't want to automate a ton of stuff, but I think having a seneye would be really helpful. I believe you were the person who mentioned it and it seems like constant monitoring of certain parameters might just pay for itself quickly and give me more peace of mind. Thanks again!

 

[ReefGeezer]

Most that are willing to reply here learned by trial and error. I'm still making mistakes and learning. Now though, they are smaller and don't harm my tank too much.... I hope. I share what I've learned & try to help. My response will undoubtedly be different than others, and we may all be correct. It's your job to choose what's right for you. That's the way it works. You are going to have to be willing read suggestions, make decisions, and make some mistakes and learn just like most of us.

The one tool I use here at R2R is to look a build threads, articles, and other information posted by people I don't already know who are giving me advice. You might start a build thread now so that everyone can see what you are accomplishing and reference it when you ask questions.

 

[undermind]

Lots of great points already made, so I don't need to repeat any of them. But can I do a tough love type thing? I mean this in the most positive and encouraging way possible.

In reading your comments, it seems like there are 2 big lessons to be learned:

1) Everybody's seems to have a different opinion, they're often conflicting, and they can cause lots of problems. [Check – you've definitely learned this]

2) When someone gives you advice, you have to evaluate it.

Hopefully you're getting closer on #2. But it seems like you kind of just took everyone's advice at full value and didn't evaluate it.

For example, if you have dinos and you ask 3 different people about it and one person tells you to raise nutrients and wait, the next tells you to use ChemiClean, and the third tells you to do a blackout and add a UV, it doesn't mean to do all of those things. Consider each thing, and if one of those makes sense to you, seems to hold weight rationally, and fits the style of reefing that you prefer, then choose that method. Commit to it confidently and evaluate the outcome. Embrace mistakes and move forward, never repeating the same mistakes.

It's been said here already, but I like the idea of reducing the many streams of advice down to just one source. Find someone who has a philosophy you admire, and a tank you're jealous of, and turn off all the static. Stop listening to all the other stuff. At some point, you'll have gained the knowledge to start knowing how to filter all the other stuff out.

There are some great reefkeepers on here that would be great mentors. I'm sure if you reached out to someone personally, they'd be happy to be that role for someone. I know I would!

I'm truly sorry for the frustrating start. I still sometimes feel conflicted and confused myself after many years doing this. But I love that you've acknowledged the issue and are confronting it head on.

 

[VanIsleReefTherapy]

The internet is an interesting place! Especially with cycling debates, those get hot and heavy on here sometimes it seems..

Do you have an LFS you can use as sort of a local mentor? My humble advice would only be to pick a tank or reefer to emulate, take most other advice with a grain of salt, take your time and develop your own opinions slowly. And don't give up!

I'm trying to do that. My lfs is solely focused on reefing and is well respected. I do try to listen to them because they have many years of experience, over a decade for some.

They are human, too. There are some contradictions even between them over opinions about things like hitchhikers, which I understand is a highly personal choice in many cases, QT which is again personal in terms of one's level of risk tolerance, etc. I'm also in Canada and can't easily get many meds, etc. so I'm navigating that, too, trying ro prepare *before* anything gets sick.

I'm walking through it all as slowly and cautiously as I can. I remember patience. It's just when things go south, it happens fast, especially in the little 13.5 Evo QT tank that I'm working with while my 40b is cycling. It's a bit harder to sift and go slowly when time is of the essence!

Thanks for your encouragement! I am determined to stick it out for at least a year or two before giving up. I'm kinda stubborn and I'm so in love with even the simple things like snails! So mesmerizing to watch.

 

[VanIsleReefTherapy]

Lots of great points already made, so I don't need to repeat any of them. But can I do a tough love type thing? I mean this in the most positive and encouraging way possible.

In reading your comments, it seems like there are 2 big lessons to be learned:

1) Everybody's seems to have a different opinion, they're often conflicting, and they can cause lots of problems. [Check – you've definitely learned this]

2) When someone gives you advice, you have to evaluate it.

Hopefully you're getting closer on #2. But it seems like you kind of just took everyone's advice at full value and didn't evaluate it.

For example, if you have dinos and you ask 3 different people about it and one person tells you to raise nutrients and wait, the next tells you to use ChemiClean, and the third tells you to do a blackout and add a UV, it doesn't mean to do all of those things. Consider each thing, and if one of those makes sense to you, seems to hold weight rationally, and fits the style of reefing that you prefer, then choose that method. Commit to it confidently and evaluate the outcome. Embrace mistakes and move forward, never repeating the same mistakes.

It's been said here already, but I like the idea of reducing the many streams of advice down to just one source. Find someone who has a philosophy you admire, and a tank you're jealous of, and turn off all the static. Stop listening to all the other stuff. At some point, you'll have gained the knowledge to start knowing how to filter all the other stuff out.

There are some great reefkeepers on here that would be great mentors. I'm sure if you reached out to someone personally, they'd be happy to be that role for someone. I know I would!

I'm truly sorry for the frustrating start. I still sometimes feel conflicted and confused myself after many years doing this. But I love that you've acknowledged the issue and are confronting it head on.

Thanks for your kindness. I am evaluating and I have several opinions informed by lots of sifting and deciding for myself.

I'm certainly not trying to to all the things people tell me. I'm a pretty good critical thinker. I get exasperated sometimes, though, and it's especially hard to figure things out, (and stand my ground!) amidst contradiction when something is going wrong.

If I have dinos, I will get a microscope and then look up the name of the FB group to find the fellow who specializes in helping with that. If a fish is sick, I'll go find info from Humblefish for help. If I ever have cycling questions again, I'll ask Brandon. I'm learning who specializes in what.

I do want a mentor, and I get help from one of my lfs folks even when she isn't working. She's been very kind. I have formed some independent opinions about how I want to do things in a global way. It's a great suggestion to find someone whose successful approach is in line with how I want to do things. I will look more at build threads and get my own up to date!

I agree that doing lots of research from many sources contributes to confusion and overwhelm sometimes. And when I get overwhelmed with my info sifting, I really do need to stop and just lean in to a consistent reliable source for help.

 

[VanIsleReefTherapy]

This is the truest thing I've seen on here all week! I wanted to react to your post with the laughing face, but didn't want you to think I was laughing AT you, lol!
...
Good luck, and thanks for expressing what so many have felt when getting started.

BTW, this is one of my favourite replies. I wanted people to laugh at how ridiculous and exasperating it can be at times. Thanks for jumping in to share that with me, and thanks for the encouragement.

 

[undermind]

Thanks for your kindness. I am evaluating and I have several opinions informed by lots of sifting and deciding for myself.

I'm certainly not trying to to all the things people tell me. I'm a pretty good critical thinker. I get exasperated sometimes, though, and it's especially hard to figure things out, (and stand my ground!) amidst contradiction when something is going wrong.

If I have dinos, I will get a microscope and then look up the name of the FB group to find the fellow who specializes in helping with that. If a fish is sick, I'll go find info from Humblefish for help. If I ever have cycling questions again, I'll ask Brandon. I'm learning who specializes in what.

I do want a mentor, and I get help from one of my lfs folks even when she isn't working. She's been very kind. I have formed some independent opinions about how I want to do things in a global way. It's a great suggestion to find someone whose successful approach is in line with how I want to do things. I will look more at build threads and get my own up to date!

I agree that doing lots of research from many sources contributes to confusion and overwhelm sometimes. And when I get overwhelmed with my info sifting, I really do need to stop and just lean in to a consistent reliable source for help.

I can tell you're a critical thinker. And I can tell you're going to be a very successful reefer.

The example I posed with dinos was not the best, because I know that you weren't ever doing ALL the things people were telling you. But it felt like a point to make just for the greater good in general.

It seems like a case of reflecting on where you're at and thinking "how the heck did I get HERE?" And then you start to see all the bad advice that led to such a crooked path.

And I see you've already found some great sources of info and thought leaders with Humblefish and Brandon (I thought you were talking about me, Brandon. But the other Brandon is OK too, haha).

I'll admit, it's strangely satisfying to get several years into the hobby and have some newb at the LFS start newb-splaining some crappy advice or bad technique to me. I just listen and nod, and walk away thinking "OK now I know whether or not to take advice from them".

 

[Koh23]

Golden rule - don't trust anyone unconditionally if they try to sell you something

Yes, internet is full of everything, personally, i like to hear advice, from various sides, but final decision is mine, so if i choose good or bad - that's how i learn , really don't matter..... you can make mistake, but make sure you made it only once.... that's the best way to learn and progress in this hobby....

Ask, ask and ask, everything, but let final decision be yours....

 

[Jedi1199]

BTW, this is one of my favourite replies. I wanted people to laugh at how ridiculous and exasperating it can be at times. Thanks for jumping in to share that with me, and thanks for the encouragement.

Just imagine starting back when I did. I got my first ever fish at the fair back in the early 80s, set up a 10g tank and the journey began. In the late 80s I got a job where several of the people I worked with had SW tanks, so I got a tank (the same 55g that I have now) and made the move to SW. That tank was successful to a point, but the success was more luck than anything.

Back then there was no internet, no cell phones and if you had a "beeper" you were special! Hahaha what a world we live in today!!

We had to rely on books, and magazines to find the information we needed. Imagine the same conflicting ideas only 50 times harder to find. If you had a specific question, you were basically out of luck. The LFS was the place we went to ask questions. In my experience, the WORST place to go (at least back then). Today's LFS, at least the ones I go to, are better. I still take what they say and balance it against my own experience and research and then move forward.

As exasperating as the internet is, the information available is vastly superior to what was available 30-40 years ago.

 

[VanIsleReefTherapy]

Just imagine starting back when I did. I got my first ever fish at the fair back in the early 80s, set up a 10g tank and the journey began. In the late 80s I got a job where several of the people I worked with had SW tanks, so I got a tank (the same 55g that I have now) and made the move to SW. That tank was successful to a point, but the success was more luck than anything.

Back then there was no internet, no cell phones and if you had a "beeper" you were special! Hahaha what a world we live in today!!

We had to rely on books, and magazines to find the information we needed. Imagine the same conflicting ideas only 50 times harder to find. If you had a specific question, you were basically out of luck. The LFS was the place we went to ask questions. In my experience, the WORST place to go (at least back then). Today's LFS, at least the ones I go to, are better. I still take what they say and balance it against my own experience and research and then move forward.

As exasperating as the internet is, the information available is vastly superior to what was available 30-40 years ago.

I kept guppies in the mid 80's My neighbour across the street had lionfish in what must have been at least a 120g tank when I was about seven. It was completely alien and arcane to me. My parents designed and built a Japanese garden (at two houses) and we had koi and red cap orandas, black moores, and comets that interbred with our koi.

I have no idea at all where my parents got their information, but we had happy spawning fish in the pond, and our family room had two tanks built into the wall: 90g aquarium for overwintering the less hardy pond fish, a 90g freshwater with plecos, loaches, a glass catfish and others I don't remember, and a 50g tank on a stand for freshwater angels.

Everything revolved around the lfs, magazines, clubs, etc. I suppose. We drove a long way to get our koi.

Thanks for the trip down memory lane. Maybe I'm just coming back home to aquarium keeping after 40 years away.

 

[Jedi1199]

I kept guppies in the mid 80's My neighbour across the street had lionfish in what must have been at least a 120g tank when I was about seven. It was completely alien and arcane to me. My parents designed and built a Japanese garden (at two houses) and we had koi and red cap orandas, black moores, and comets that interbred with our koi.

I have no idea at all where my parents got their information, but we had happy spawning fish in the pond, and our family room had two tanks built into the wall: 90g aquarium for overwintering the less hardy pond fish, a 90g freshwater with plecos, loaches, a glass catfish and others I don't remember, and a 50g tank on a stand for freshwater angels.

Everything revolved around the lfs, magazines, clubs, etc. I suppose. We drove a long way to get our koi.

Thanks for the trip down memory lane. Maybe I'm just coming back home to aquarium keeping after 40 years away.

In my own experience, there is actually quite a lot of similarity between the basic science of both FW and SW tanks. Use what you know in the FW world to help guide you through the SW startup phase.

Cycling a FW and SW tank is identical in the process. Either use a bottled bacterium, established rock, or a sponge from an established tank, or start from scratch and let the process occur naturally over time.

Personally, I have always used rocks from an established tank to skip-cycle my tanks. Of the above options, I feel it is the most reliable option. Is it the best? I can't say. It works for me. HAHA how is that for a contradiction? Cycling is probably one of the most highly debated topics in this hobby.

I can say for a fact that the rocks in an established tank have MORE than enough bacteria to skip-cycle most tanks with no issues. How do I know? Because I've done it, many many times over. I even have firsthand experience at taking all the rocks from an established tank, and washing them under TAP water, cleaning the tank itself to bare glass, washing the sand in hose water, and restarting the tank in less than 48 hours with no ill effects. See thread "32g rework" .

You have what you need to sift out the BS from the reality. I felt that from your very first post. Relax and enjoy your journey.

 

[Jedi1199]

Edited post above to reflect... I washed the rocks under TAP water, not tank water (more than a minor distinction). Sorry for the error.