Copper and fishless

Scolymia88

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I've never quarentined but ive decided its time. Anytime something happens to water chemistry/parmameters that stress fish i get velvet(yes im sure its velvet) could also be ich mixed in as well but defintly velvet. Ive rarely lost a fish to it I just ramp up water changes and feeding for a few weeks and they pull through.

With cold Midwest faced it hurt my tanks and most fish got velvet. All but my plainhead filefish and scopas are pretty much cleared up. But im done seeing the outbreaks happen and want to give fish the best environment possible. This time I want to rid my tanks of it velvet and ich(im sure both are in there).

So im stripping my 155 of all live rock, and going to take time do do a complete refugium clean and make it a bare sump during the copper treatment. All that will stay is my sand bed.... Im just not going to remove all of it. Then im going to put all fish into my 155 and treat with copper. I plan on doing 2 rounds maybe 3 while I leave my 300gal fishless for 90 days(except shark). I am getting a hanna high level copper and seachem cupramine.

My biggest dilemma is the coral banded shark. I dont want to put her in the copper tank but the velvet/ich could be on her but she show no symptoms(she never has). If I do cp baths every 4 days with her would this eliminate the parasite. Or leaving 300 completly fishless minus shark ill always have risk of velvet or ich? I could always weigh her and put cp in her food. I do this wither vitamins already and never had any issue with her not eating them.

I just want to make sure after all of this I rid my tanks of the evil little parasites lol.

I dont ever plan on adding a new fish unless quarentined after I do all this lol.
 
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Jay Hemdal

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Sharks don’t get Cryptocaryon, but they can get Amyloodinium (velvet). I know you said you are sure you had velvet, but it is a lot rarer than people realize. There are many pictures here of fish supposedly showing velvet, but it’s ich.
I have never run a fallow tank for ich with a shark in it, so I can’t say if it is a problem or not. It would be a problem if you in fact did have velvet as the shark can for sure carry that.
You really should remove all the sand if you are going to dose copper.
Jay
 
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Scolymia88

Scolymia88

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There are probally well over 200 little white dots on the plainhead. Its not just a few little specs. When outbreaks happens its hundreds of dots. I know those aren't the parasite more a wound. My fish also scratch and love the powerheads during an outbreak.

I may look into setting up 2 40 gallons. I just feel bad knowing the bigger fish will be in there for 90 days. But don't mind going that route either because this is for the long run to keep fish healthy.
 
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Scolymia88

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I tried taking a picture and these are best I can get. When the planehead sees me thing gets so excited and wants food...even after I feed it a big meal. And doesn't stop moving.

There are a few specs that look bigger and others smaller Not sure if that means anything. 4 days ago is when I really noticed something was going on.

The sailfin got it really bad but I got some cleaner shrimp and helped it relax alot getting a nice groom. Its specs went from (alot/all over), to the specs turning a grey color, to now no visual specs/color discolorations after about 4 days....looks much healthier. And is no longer violently flicking its body by powerhead.

The bluelined trigger had it fairly bad, was scratching against rock and even slept closer to powerhead vs its normal spot but healed up fast as well(very few visual spots). The harlequin tuskfish still has a fair amount of white specs(hundreds) but seems much calmer and no longer brushing against rocks/powerhead.
Scopas has concentrated areas of white specs especially where fin meets body. But it too is not flicking against rock or powerheads. All never stopped eating.

Wish I could provide better pictures. Hopefully descriptions of behavior/appearance help. The idea of velvet just came from what I read in other threads. I assumed velvet due to so many spots, flicking against rocks and lingering by powerheads.

Its happened 2 other times over 9 years. Once when my salinity meter broke years ago, and another 8ish months ago when my nitrate test had expired and would always read yellow. This time the extreme cold weather in midwest made it hard to the keep tanks warm the 300 got down to 75 for a few days, made water too cold for ro to be made for water changes. Could only keep up with top off.

Thats why I'm wanting to get a quarentine going so if accidents happen in future my fish arent swarmed by parasites.
 

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Scolymia88

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Here are the sailfin and blueline now. Both look completely healed now minus a few spots on bluelined. But they each had hundreds of spots 2-3 days ago
 

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Scolymia88

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Sharks don’t get Cryptocaryon, but they can get Amyloodinium (velvet). I know you said you are sure you had velvet, but it is a lot rarer than people realize. There are many pictures here of fish supposedly showing velvet, but it’s ich.
I have never run a fallow tank for ich with a shark in it, so I can’t say if it is a problem or not. It would be a problem if you in fact did have velvet as the shark can for sure carry that.
You really should remove all the sand if you are going to dose

Thanks for stating how rare velvet and using scientific names, I used those to search and more research/study based results popped up and not forum based ones.

I cant be "sure" on something like velvet with out hard evidence which is very important if im going to try and eradicate it. I have a friend who looks at cells for a living. She agreed to take the samples I take from rock scrapings, sand, water, fin clippings, and gill/skin of a engineer goby in my freezer that died of what I thought was old age(it was 12) a few months ago. Then email me pictures of slides that I can go over.

Yay for knowing the right person lol. Then I can be "sure" what I'm trying to treat/rid my tanks of!!!!

Any other suggestions on where to take samples?
 

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I tried taking a picture and these are best I can get. When the planehead sees me thing gets so excited and wants food...even after I feed it a big meal. And doesn't stop moving.

There are a few specs that look bigger and others smaller Not sure if that means anything. 4 days ago is when I really noticed something was going on.

The sailfin got it really bad but I got some cleaner shrimp and helped it relax alot getting a nice groom. Its specs went from (alot/all over), to the specs turning a grey color, to now no visual specs/color discolorations after about 4 days....looks much healthier. And is no longer violently flicking its body by powerhead.

The bluelined trigger had it fairly bad, was scratching against rock and even slept closer to powerhead vs its normal spot but healed up fast as well(very few visual spots). The harlequin tuskfish still has a fair amount of white specs(hundreds) but seems much calmer and no longer brushing against rocks/powerhead.
Scopas has concentrated areas of white specs especially where fin meets body. But it too is not flicking against rock or powerheads. All never stopped eating.

Wish I could provide better pictures. Hopefully descriptions of behavior/appearance help. The idea of velvet just came from what I read in other threads. I assumed velvet due to so many spots, flicking against rocks and lingering by powerheads.

Its happened 2 other times over 9 years. Once when my salinity meter broke years ago, and another 8ish months ago when my nitrate test had expired and would always read yellow. This time the extreme cold weather in midwest made it hard to the keep tanks warm the 300 got down to 75 for a few days, made water too cold for ro to be made for water changes. Could only keep up with top off.

Thats why I'm wanting to get a quarentine going so if accidents happen in future my fish arent swarmed by parasites.
The planehead seems to have ich to me....

Jay
 

Jay Hemdal

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Here are the sailfin and blueline now. Both look completely healed now minus a few spots on bluelined. But they each had hundreds of spots 2-3 days ago
I can still see some sort of "crud" on the trigger. Could be artifacts of the photo, but I see spots along the back and some cloudiness to its eye. I know it sucks, but fish often have multiple issues at the same time...watch the cloudy eyes as being a sign of Neobenedenia.

Jay
 

Jay Hemdal

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Thanks for stating how rare velvet and using scientific names, I used those to search and more research/study based results popped up and not forum based ones.

I cant be "sure" on something like velvet with out hard evidence which is very important if im going to try and eradicate it. I have a friend who looks at cells for a living. She agreed to take the samples I take from rock scrapings, sand, water, fin clippings, and gill/skin of a engineer goby in my freezer that died of what I thought was old age(it was 12) a few months ago. Then email me pictures of slides that I can go over.

Yay for knowing the right person lol. Then I can be "sure" what I'm trying to treat/rid my tanks of!!!!

Any other suggestions on where to take samples?
Frozen samples won't work for seeing parasites' - the freezing process destroys the cells. The only time you can really find anything is to take biopsies from a freshly dead fish, less than 4 hours or so. Environmental sampling (rocks, sand etc.) is so difficult that I never try that - you'll see all sorts of "critters" but since they are living off of the fish, they are unlikely to be parasites. Parasite eggs and tomont stages ARE found in the environment, but they look like inconsequential little spheres, so go unnoticed.

Jay
 
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Scolymia88

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I watched a video on skin scrape of fish. Im going to borrow friends personal microscope. Catch a couple fish, carefully do a skin scrape and take slides right to the microscope.

I cant get a picture of fish but when it hits the light the right way its like a sheen over skin with a bunch of those dots. I really hope its ich, and just leaving the 300 to the shark for awhile is the solution. Id prefer not to treat her with anything.

For the rest of them when it comes time to treat, going to set up 2 40 gallon hospital tanks and not use the 155.

Thanks!
 

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Good luck! You may be able to get a picture through the microscope using your phone.
Jay
 
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Scolymia88

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@Jay Hemdal
I'm going to bug you again haha

My plans changed due to a universities exotic vet clinic I live by agreeing to take skin scrapes off 2 of my fish and use them as a learning tool for students so im getting a huge discount for all of this! Educated diagnosis and a prescription for chloroquine phosphate, not bad eh? Also photos of the slides which I can post here when I get them.

My plan is to divide the fish up in smaller tanks still. A couple 10s, 20s and a 40. And atleast 2 tests a day for ammonia/nitrate/nitrite and do water changes based on readings. All testing equipment will be sterilized after each test, gloves worn, and fish will be in a seperate closed room away from my main tanks. Daily water changes will be done based on those readings and to remove waste. CQ will be measured with digital scale, and salt water measured by weight via scale as well to keep therapeutic levels. Unless its over board, after 1 week I will empty, sanitize tank/equipment, and do 100% water change with fresh new dose of CP. After the 2 weeks are up I will do another 100% water change/sanitize tanks and keep them in these tanks for another 3 weeks to observe/keep main tanks fallow for a total of 35 days. I will get sponge filters for each tank after cp treatment and test and do water changes as needed.

2 weeks after placing them back in main tanks I will be taking 1 of my easier to catch fish(planehead) back to vet for another skin scrape and lab session with students(assuming it survives QT). And once more s 2 weeks after....that poor fish.

Some of my fish still look bad so I don't plan on all of them making it. Minus the shark....shes fine but I want to be thorough so the tanks have to be completly fallow.

Supplies I will get for each tank
Heater, pvc for hiding, power heads, air stones( or no stones?) for each tank. No special lighting minus a small lamp.
All will be sterilized every 3 days.

Maintanks will be kept at 81-82 1.026 salinity.

I read your recent thread, and about posted this there but felt its better not to confuse the subject. My situation isn't exactly a real controlled study by someone with the proper equipment/knowledge. But im going to do my best with the tools at hand and results will be semi verified by a universities exotics department(someone with a PhD in something lol). I could possibly confirm with my situation/tanks 30-35 days fallow was long enough for parasites to die off. 90 days was a nice thought but pry way way to stressful on fish especially the shark. I like the idea of giving 30-35 days a shot testing and water changes are going to keep me busy . If it fails I wont be the first aquarist whos qt plan wasn't a success

Any advice on my new game plan? All help is much appreciated. Im learning my lesson the hard way of why a thorough qt is needed before putting fish in DT.

Thanks again!
 

Jay Hemdal

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What dose of chloroquine do you plan to use? Be sure to monitor ammonia closely every day with a test kit, not a badge.

Jay
 
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Scolymia88

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60mg/gal Im trying to follow humblefish write up on it. Its the most detailed I can find. Small error above, i will be doing 4 week in CP not 2 week. And 1 week observation. The 100% water change wasn't mentioned by humble but to manage nutrients as each tank will be half ish filled to conserve CP and have several fish. Shark is getting 40gal to herself. I forgot to mention the pre dips. Im on edge with the fw dip, but come Monday ill pry do it. Still reading more as I've never done that with a saltwater fish and it sounds crazy to me....but im no doctor haha.

I know saving some of my fish is a long shot, and most will die. Im using this experience as a building block to being a better aquarist for future livestock. Defintly sucks watching them suffer and not being able to do much about it. Lesson learned!!! QT is the way to go and the learning never stops in this hobby.
 
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Jay Hemdal

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That dose works out to be 16 mg/l I think. That is a bit higher than I now recommend (12 mg/l). I stopped using CP about 6 years ago after seeing mortality issues in fish at the 15-20 mg/l dose....and I have a UV spectrophotometer, so I could actually measure the CP. Here is a link to an article I wrote while I was still using it: (I may have sent this to you already?)



Jay
 
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Scolymia88

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Was unable to get fish to vet, almost all died over the weekend.

The Harlequin Tusk had not eaten for 7 days, was able to pick up with hands and move it to small bio cube with a cleaner shrimp and oddly it made a decent recovery (didn't expect that to happen) back to eating daily and very active in the little cube, let's the cleaner clean. The fish in 155 made a good recovery with the help of cleaner shrimp as well. The 300 just has the cat shark and Maroon clown left. The cat shark shows absolutly no illness. She eats like a champ, active, normal gill movement and may of eaten 1 or 2 of the fish that had died before I could get them out.

Here are some pictures of the maroon clown, finally figured out how to control my new reef lights and got a few semi decent pictures of what killed all my fish in 300.

I'm at a blank on what to do till I get a fish to the university for a diagnosis. The cleaners bought some time with a few fish, went from 23 to 6. I have all equipment to do a qt, but not going to do that till I better know what I'm treating for. I'm also sending in sample to triton for for icp test just to see what the tank water looks like since I've never had it done before.
 

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