Copper band Butterfly QT possibly

[exnisstech]

I may have taken it wrong, but we have a lot of newbies and new to certain fish owners and at Minimum I recommend a 60 minute bath. As one of medics, i/we cant count the number of people who have lost fish and even tanks due to no Quarantine, improper introduction and inexperience and I will never despite my own methods suggest to take a chance on a fish that appears healthy and have been at store long term and go ahead and pop in in the tank.
We have seen in the last quarter alone a number of reefers who bought a quarantined fish and cant believe it has ich after dropping it into tank and now have to resort anyway to Quarantine and now inconvenience themselves for 6-8 weeks of having No fish in their display due to a simple missed step

I totally understand. We appreciate you and all the rest of the fish medics.

 

[MnFish1]

Getting ready to start a qt batch in a 20L. LFS is holding a flame angel (replacement for one lost), a file fish, and a copper band butterfly. I would absolutely love a copper band butterfly fish, but I am nervous about successfully having one make it through qt. I plan to use the qt protocol outlined on the forums. I did see that it was eating well currently at the LFS.

Appreciate thoughts/experiences.

I have had no problem getting a healthy copper band through routine quarantine. I think its important to not pick a 'baby' - nor one that has ANY sign of lethargy, not eating, etc

 

[MnFish1]

The file fish has been at the shop for awhile, the angel and the butterfly fish will be there over a week when picking up.

One problem is that they may have the fish in a copper containing tank - low level - which is making things 'look ok'. Only to find problems when you get home

 

[Tamberav]

Getting ready to start a qt batch in a 20L. LFS is holding a flame angel (replacement for one lost), a file fish, and a copper band butterfly. I would absolutely love a copper band butterfly fish, but I am nervous about successfully having one make it through qt. I plan to use the qt protocol outlined on the forums. I did see that it was eating well currently at the LFS.

Appreciate thoughts/experiences.

They handle the meds well..

But you need it EATING well.

Can you buy live black worms locally?

Setting up a live white worm culture would give you a much greater chance of success over time. It will take some time to start one though.

 

[MnFish1]

Bet ya tons of fish die in QT as well.

If you know the fishes history, risk is low.
Treated fish also come with some risk.

Is full QT a better option, sure, if you know what your doing and have access to the correct meds, and have no idea where the fish has been, sure.

“Bad advice” seems harsh to me.

Reefers can make the choices that best fit them, based on what they now of their new friend and understand the level of risk they are comfortable with, each one of us different.

The only fish I’ve lost is the first one I tried to treat not knowing why it just died at 17 days.

I believe @vetteguy53081 in general is 'correct' - it was 'bad advice'. That said - IF you know the source of your fish, and they are NOT going through overnight shipping and you can verify their health you are also correct - that the likelihood of a problem is lower. However - take this scenario - you have a copper band thats gone through observation, looks great, but is put into a tank which contains Ich that has been suppressed, etc - there is a very high risk that the stress of the addition will cause disease in the new fish. Thats why the 'best advice' - IMHO - is to treat every fish with a copper/prazipro protocol.

 

[exnisstech]

Another thing I want to throw out there for the OP is many vendors keep fish in low salinity. Many of them state it prevents disease when it actually suppresses it only to have it become active when the fish is placed in normal salinity. @Jay Hemdal confirmed this when I was aking about it. My velvet outbreak was from a fish that came from a tank that was 1.015 and the fish looked fine in the store. I was not aware of the low salinity. Now I rarely buy fish online and when I buy local I bring a Hanna salinity tester and check the water. My favorite lfs keep all tanks at 1.025-1.026.

 

[MnFish1]

I did not read that @Uncle99 was telling any one not to take precautions and do things the way he does them. He stated how he does it which is not a recommendation just a statement. I do things similar to him and I tell people how I do it. I thought discussing different methods is part of what a discussion board is for? Maybe I'm wrong but IMO people should know the risks involved not medicating and they should know that medicating in a sterile environment comes with its own risks which vary from fish to fish. Then they can make the informed choice for themselves.

I don't disagree with you - however, recommending a QT procedure is also just that - a recommendation - and it's a recommendation plan based on science as compared to luck = I don't want that recommendation to come across as 'a demand'. IMHO - there are multiple variables that come into play when it comes to adding new fish (without QT, the first being stocking density of the tank (the higher - the more likelihood of a massive wipeout). second - the source of the fish. third - the water conditions fourth the other fish in the tank (stress related). For example (a stupid one - but it illustrates the point) - if I add a pair of clowns into a 5000 gallon saltwater tank - the likelihood of either one developing a disease even if I add ich into the tank is small - because the parasite needs to attach to the fish - and the odds are they (the parasite) will never find the fish - and if they do - the offspring probably will not)

 

[MnFish1]

Maybe I'm wrong but IMO people should know the risks involved not medicating and they should know that medicating in a sterile environment comes with its own risks which vary from fish to fish. Then they can make the informed choice for themselves.

Just a quick comment - I think this is a fallacy (i.e. that fish in a 'sterile' environment are more stressed out than those not ins a 'sterile' environment. Just like in many zoos, where they have a nice looking 'environment' - for example pine trees in an area surrounding a pack of wolves - the wolves are still stressed, and neurotic. I think there are numerous ways to eliminate the 'sterile look' in a medicated QT tank - and fish don't seem to mine. BTW - there is no such thing as a 'sterile environment'

EDIT - and many zoos have huge tanks with thousands of fish with totally 'rubber' (fake) coral. Technically these are just as sterile as using PVC.

 

[exnisstech]

I don't disagree with you - however, recommending a QT procedure is also just that - a recommendation - and it's a recommendation plan based on science as compared to luck = I don't want that recommendation to come across as 'a demand'. IMHO - there are multiple variables that come into play when it comes to adding new fish (without QT, the first being stocking density of the tank (the higher - the more likelihood of a massive wipeout). second - the source of the fish. third - the water conditions fourth the other fish in the tank (stress related). For example (a stupid one - but it illustrates the point) - if I add a pair of clowns into a 5000 gallon saltwater tank - the likelihood of either one developing a disease even if I add ich into the tank is small - because the parasite needs to attach to the fish - and the odds are they (the parasite) will never find the fish - and if they do - the offspring probably will not)

I didn't mean for the OP not to quarantine and apologize if it sounded that way. I was just adding one more thing to look out for when purchasing fish. Even if I did medicated QT I would not buy fish kept in low salinity. It's just one more risk that can be avoided.

 

[MnFish1]

I didn't mean for the OP not to quarantine and apologize if it sounded that way. I was just adding one more thing to look out for when purchasing fish. Even if I did medicated QT I would not buy fish kept in low salinity. It's just one more risk that can be avoided.

I think this also would be my recommendation for low copper - I only buy fish from an LFS that has been in a tank with inverts (thus, no copper or low salinity) - for at least 2 weeks.

 

[exnisstech]

Just a quick comment - I think this is a fallacy (i.e. that fish in a 'sterile' environment are more stressed out than those not ins a 'sterile' environment. Just like in many zoos, where they have a nice looking 'environment' - for example pine trees in an area surrounding a pack of wolves - the wolves are still stressed, and neurotic. I think there are numerous ways to eliminate the 'sterile look' in a medicated QT tank - and fish don't seem to mine. BTW - there is no such thing as a 'sterile environment'

I stand corrected.

 

[Lostoften]

One problem is that they may have the fish in a copper containing tank - low level - which is making things 'look ok'. Only to find problems when you get home

This fish store doesn’t run copper. A few ins area run low level, but this one doesnt

 

[MnFish1]

I stand corrected.

You may very well be correct - that was just my opinion - i.e. that it's not as big a deal as many seem to feel. FWIW, I also think that adding a fish to a tank fully stocked with coral - makes parasitic infection less likely because there is less 'bare rock' onto which parasites can 'mature'. But thats just my opinion. (@Jay Hemdal)?

 

[Lostoften]

They handle the meds well..

But you need it EATING well.

Can you buy live black worms locally?

Setting up a live white worm culture would give you a much greater chance of success over time. It will take some time to start one though.

I will ask around, not anything I have fed before

 

[Tamberav]

I will ask around, not anything I have fed before

Black worms, LFS sometimes sell.

White worms you can buy online and culture yourself until you have enough to feed. I just picked up a batch from this seller who's husband is a member on here

https://www.etsy.com/shop/TheWhiteWormLady?ref=shop-header-name&listing_id=1810179712&from_page=listing

Butterflies go absolutely nuts for white worms. if a copperband won't eat them, something is wrong.

The white worms can stay alive in saltwater for days and are smaller, black worms are a good second choice, they are larger but die almost immediately in salt water. This means the white ones keep wiggling saying "eat me".

 

[MnFish1]

I didn't mean for the OP not to quarantine and apologize if it sounded that way. I was just adding one more thing to look out for when purchasing fish. Even if I did medicated QT I would not buy fish kept in low salinity. It's just one more risk that can be avoided.

You didn't sound that way - and I apologize if it sounded like I was criticizing your comment. And you are 100% correct - I would not buy fish in low salinity as well - as it is a 'risk' - as well as a stress when adding fish to your own tank.

 

[Uncle99]

You are in essense telling others Not to take precautions and see how it plays out. Is theadvise we give others?

In essence you changed the context of an experience to advice.

No advice not to QT was ever suggested.

I do QT most, but, I don’t use meds.

I use a great source, time, low stress and feed, feed, feed.

Opposing views are not IMM bad.

 

[Uncle99]

I believe @vetteguy53081 in general is 'correct' - it was 'bad advice'. That said - IF you know the source of your fish, and they are NOT going through overnight shipping and you can verify their health you are also correct - that the likelihood of a problem is lower. However - take this scenario - you have a copper band thats gone through observation, looks great, but is put into a tank which contains Ich that has been suppressed, etc - there is a very high risk that the stress of the addition will cause disease in the new fish. Thats why the 'best advice' - IMHO - is to treat every fish with a copper/prazipro protocol.

It’s not bad advice as NO advice was given.
I’ll be real careful going forward.

 

[vetteguy53081]

In essence you changed the context of an experience to advice.

No advice not to QT was ever suggested.

I do QT most, but, I don’t use meds.

I use a great source, time, low stress and feed, feed, feed.

Opposing views are not IMM bad.

Im not going to make an argument of this. This is best left to MEDIC team in many cases. The statement you made was of concern but I think we recognized misconception and confusion

You said: Since he ate at the store, and in my QT (be it a slow start) by day 4 he was agreesively eating, in my case PE mysis. With zero concerns, at 15 days he went to the DT in an acclimatized box for 4 hours in light during afternoon.

I just don’t do any pretreatment provided I know the source and I transport which takes under 30 minutes.

At dusk he was released.

 

[MnFish1]

It’s not bad advice as NO advice was given.
I’ll be real careful going forward.

I think you may be taking this more personally/seriously than I meant it to be taken. IMHO - for the majority of hobbyists - the best plan is a protocol (pick it - and stick to it) - for quarantine. It doesn't have to be the one recommended here - but this is the best one I've found.