copper resistant fish diseases - QT tank making me nervous - bad FW dip

[FishTruck]

I have five anthias - day Five in QT
and... a vampire tang - day 30 in QT - nice and fat. A black cap basslet died in the QT on day two (6/29) - I didn't think too much of that (shipping stress perhaps).

40 gallon breeder AT, ammonia zero, nitrates 20 ppm, cupramine levels 0.5 mg/L - API test kit, SG 1.024.

Yesterday, I picked up a black tang from a local reefer. Freshwater dipped it last night - introduced it into QT - it ate right away. I turned out the lights and went to bed. I was planning to reset the QT clock for another 14 to 28 days. There was no violence between the tangs and thought I was sitting pretty.

This morning - the vampire tang was acting really weird. Swimming in circles - by this afternoon - it was swimming into the current of the power head, tilted to the side a little bit, not eating, and doing little else. No spots. Respiratory rate was really fast and the fish just didn't look right. It had a single red spot in the middle of it's body - that might have been a missing scale or trauma - but I am not sure.

All other fish look great and are eating as of 6 pm (thank goodness).

I started to think about velvet and decided to FW dip the vampire tang - and follow the velvet protocol.

Perhaps this was a mistake. The fish looks like H#LL after the FW dip - much worse than before the dip. At minute four in FW - it looked like it had been scraped against a cheese grater - with what looked like white abrasions on its sides and fins. It did play dead and tried to jump twice - so, maybe it got scratched up - or maybe this is just a color change - but it looks bad. Like... I am afraid to even take pictures of it, it looks so bad.

At minute five, I put it back in QT - hustled it around the tank to rinse it gills - but it really still looks awful, confused, and tilted over. I have it in an isolation box back in QT for the night, and the lights are out. I am praying it will be better in the morning - but I won't sleep well tonight worrying that the whole QT might go down.

So, I need a plan and a differential diagnosis for what could have erupted despite copper 0.5 and what to do if other fish start looking bad.

I have a Hanna checker, Furan2, and and ruby reef rally coming - so I can treat velvet (if that's what this is).

What else could break out despite copper? Or, maybe, the fish was only acting weird because of the other tang - but why, then, did the FW dip go so poorly?

 

[TriggerFinger]

It does sound like velvet. Pics will definitely help us help you.
Did you see anything fall off in the freshwater dip?
In case you haven’t seen it; here’s a detailed article about velvet with good pictures to compare and treatment protocol.
https://www.reef2reef.com/ams/tank-terror-identifying-and-treating-marine-velvet.26/

 

[FishTruck]

This is before the FW dip. Bad picture - but there was not to much to see, only the fish acting weird. You can see the pink (abrasion?) just in front of the tail spine. It looked like something that would heal in a day.

I'll get another picture in the a.m. - the next 8 hours should be pretty informative. This was the LAST fish I would have guessed would get sick. In fact... I almost pulled it out of QT and put it in the main tank last night to avoid the interaction with the black tang.

 

[FishTruck]

Here is the fish this a.m. He's not going to make it. I have separated him from the others in a no copper bucket. All those body changes happened before my eyes in the FW dip. I see no spots on the fish. The five anthias look fine and the black tang seems o.k.

 

[FishTruck]

This is what my copper readings look like - consistent for the past month. Like I said earlier, I am getting a Hanna Copper Checker. I can't really read the difference between 0.25 and 0.5 ppm - so maybe I am sub therapeutic. Not toxic though, I think.

 

[FishTruck]

So, I either over reacted and killed that vampire tang - or... there is something in my QT that is getting past whatever copper I have in there. I still have five anthias and a black tang (about a grand worth of fish) in that QT.

Plan:
1. verify copper levels
2. no more FW dips - the effect appears to be severely detrimental in this situation
3. 25% water changes daily to optimize water quality.
4. seek advice on a possible pathogen - Brooklynella maybe?
5. observe other fish for problems and separate out sick fish

Other considerations: could be harmful
1. more emperic medications? - Don't know what I am treating
2. empty and sterilize the QT? - ruins bio filter - degraded water quality later

 

[TriggerFinger]

oh my. Maybe that’s a bacterial infection that got the best of him. Where did the fish come from? Let’s try to find some experts over here #reefsquad

 

[FishTruck]

On exam this morning, the skin seems to be pallorous, not abraided or peeled or slimy, and still no spots on any of the fish.

I have seen remarkable color changes in various fish, and they all have their own patterns. It happened so fast in FW, I am thinking its just pallor on the skin.

The fish came from an online vendor, two fish arrived in late June - the tang looked great... a basselet looked terrible and died quickly.

 

[TriggerFinger]

Can you move this tang to a no copper QT to observe?

 

[Qasimja]

that looks like a bacterial infection do you have any antibiotics on hand

 

[FishTruck]

Can you move this tang to a no copper QT to observe?

that looks like a bacterial infection do you have any antibiotics on hand

Done... the fish is in a copper-less QT and away from the others. I seriously doubt it will be alive this afternoon - I have never seen a fish come back at this stage of confusion and weakness.

I have some Furan2 coming. Whatever happened to this fish - based on symptoms - seems to have attacked the gills. No flukes fell off with the FW dip.

 

[TriggerFinger]

Velvet attacks the gills & sometimes it happens so fast you don’t see the typical spots. Do you happen to have a microscope to view scrapings if it doesn’t make it? Just so you know what could be lurking with the other fish.

 

[alton]

First of all I FW dip all new fish before they get a Prazi bath and then into QT for me. One thing I have had to watch and test for is what are the parameters of the FW I am using. Here at work for the last ten years it was hard and PH was actually higher than my seawater. But in the last year Alk is high but PH is extremely low. So I use RODI now and buffer it. Anytime we move a fish we take a chance of losing it. I moved a Chevron tang once from tank to 100 gallon holding tank. The next morning it was dead? Sorry this happened. With the cost of Black Tangs today I would set up its own QT.

 

[VJM 21]

I’m not positive about this because I don’t use cupramine, but I think the API test kit only works for chelated copper. Just a thought. I read that you have the Hanna Checker coming, which works for both ionic and chelated copper.

 

[FishTruck]

Velvet attacks the gills & sometimes it happens so fast you don’t see the typical spots. Do you happen to have a microscope to view scrapings if it doesn’t make it? Just so you know what could be lurking with the other fish.

I have a full lab at work, but, I probably can't prepare and examine tissue until Tuesday. Maybe, I should invest in a cheap microscope.

 

[FishTruck]

The tang has moved on. All remaining fish (the black tang and anthias) are normal and just ate. Working diagnosis is copper toxicity (too many days in copper) and opportunistic bacterial infection. That's the only difference between the fish that went down and the others - # of days in copper.

I'll limit empiric copper treatment to 14 days from now on, verify levels, and observe all other fish closely. If it's copper resistant Brooklynella / or velvet / or ich, I should see it in the other fish at some point. I'll drop the copper at day 14 for the current fish, run just UV and observe for another week or two and keep the tank as clean as possible.

Thanks for all the ideas and help so far.

 

[FishTruck]

Well... I think my assessment was correct. Too many days in copper with an opportunistic bacterial infection (based on the lack of any other findings and the only difference between the dead tang and the other fish was the number of days in copper). I have read that this is a known phenomenon... and long copper treatments are often combined with empiric antibiotics.

I decided to just pull the other fish and get them into normal water with normal flora. They are now all thriving in the DT with no other signs of illness. They received a minimum of 8 days in cupramine.