*COPPERSAFE WARNING* along with Research on Hanna Instruments High Range Copper Checker

[chicago]

copper being absorbed by rock ect is not a question for Hanna. The rock and other material in your tank will constantly soak up copper. Thus the need to test daily in my opinion. This will be limited in a QT tank that is barren of rock ect.

 

[HotRocks]

copper being absorbed by rock ect is not a question for Hanna. The rock and other material in your tank will constantly soak up copper. Thus the need to test daily in my opinion. This will be limited in a QT tank that is barren of rock ect.

I agree 100%. Hanna has confirmed the test is accurate.

It's up to hobbyists to figure out what absorbs copper what doesn't etc.

Frequent testing is a MUST when using any copper product.

Live rock isn't necessary in a QT with a properly established biofilter. I see no valid reason for using it in QT. Once you do it's no longer able to be used in a DT, so why use it in QT?

 

[wangspeed]

I put a small amount of Stax in since I had spare. Mostly to give the fish a more natural environment for shelter to reduce their stress levels. We already know copper is poison at these levels. The sand question was for sand burying wrasses.

Edit: yes I test with the Hanna regularly, which is how I know the Stax isn’t soaking up much copper. Currently running 8 resplendent anthias through.

As far as lower CP combined with copper, my thought was that copper can be hard on some fish, and likewise CP. We know that low levels of copper can suppress but not eliminate. What if there was CP dosed as well? I thought it might be an interesting experiment. Maybe not.

 

[HotRocks]

I put a small amount of Stax in since I had spare. Mostly to give the fish a more natural environment for shelter to reduce their stress levels. We already know copper is poison at these levels. The sand question was for sand burying wrasses.

Edit: yes I test with the Hanna regularly, which is how I know the Stax isn’t soaking up much copper. Currently running 8 resplendent anthias through.

As far as lower CP combined with copper, my thought was that copper can be hard on some fish, and likewise CP. We know that low levels of copper can suppress but not eliminate. What if there was CP dosed as well? I thought it might be an interesting experiment. Maybe not.

Sand is definitely helpful in QT for wrasse. @Humblefish did some testing in two side by side QTs with identical equipment/copper dosing (One with a sand container, one without). It was concluded that there was no noticeable absorption using Caribsea Fiji Pink DRY sand. He monitored using the Hanna Cu Checker. Only recommendation he had was to rinse the sand very well prior to placement in QT. I can verify it is very dirty out of the bag. I have since added to my current batch of QT as well.

Good to know on the Stax.

I cant elaborate any further on the mixing of CP and Copper as I don't have experience with CP, I guess the extent of what I know was expressed above. Logically I just cant make sense of mixing the two.
@4FordFamily @melypr1985 @Big G Any thoughts here?

 

[Sleepydoc]

The chloroquine phosphate question would likely be addressed separately in another thread, but why would you want to treat with both?

 

[wangspeed]

The chloroquine phosphate question would likely be addressed separately in another thread, but why would you want to treat with both?

Lower levels with hopefully less side effects. I know we have charts of which fish tolerate CP v Cu, but we also see quite a bit of contradiction. Like some people are getting wrasses and anthias through CP just fine, while others say no way. Likewise with Cu, though I suspect much of that will improve with the Hanna checker.

Just an idle thought.

 

[4FordFamily]

Lower levels with hopefully less side effects. I know we have charts of which fish tolerate CP v Cu, but we also see quite a bit of contradiction. Like some people are getting wrasses and anthias through CP just fine, while others say no way. Likewise with Cu, though I suspect much of that will improve with the Hanna checker.

Just an idle thought.

I agree I think copper is now a better option in many cases now that we have the Hanna checker to keep copper levels stable and just above therapeutic (1.5ppm)

 

[4FordFamily]

The chloroquine phosphate question would likely be addressed separately in another thread, but why would you want to treat with both?

You wouldn’t want to treat with both concurrently I see no reason to do that.

 

[Orcus Varuna]

I know this has likely been answered already but this is a very long thread lol. I have been treating with copper safe at the recommended dose in a qt that has been set up for 4+ months, all water changes have been replaced exactly at the recommended dose but I have been testing out with a 4 or above on the api test kit. I just chalked this up to a $5 test kit and chugged along putting my clownfish and sixline through a treatment and more recently a lawnmower blenny, Melanarus Wrasse and a Lubbocks wrasse. I recently noticed after about 3 weeks in the treatment both my Melanarus and Lubbocks wrasse began flashing like crazy (like more flashing then I’ve seen with end stage velvet) and the Lubbocks developed what I can only describe as a rash. I immediately did a 50% water change and added carbon and cuprasorb. It’s been 3 days now and the fish are flashing less and the rash seems to be resolving. My question is should I restart the copper treatment at say a half dose for another month or if the fish appear asymptomatic should I move on to my usual prazipro treatment before adding to the display? Prior to removing the copper the qt has been at or above therapeutic levels for 4+ months as I did not treat my clowns and sixline for flukes as they have never displayed symptoms in the year plus I have had them.

 

[HotRocks]

I know this has likely been answered already but this is a very long thread lol. I have been treating with copper safe at the recommended dose in a qt that has been set up for 4+ months, all water changes have been replaced exactly at the recommended dose but I have been testing out with a 4 or above on the api test kit. I just chalked this up to a $5 test kit and chugged along putting my clownfish and sixline through a treatment and more recently a lawnmower blenny, Melanarus Wrasse and a Lubbocks wrasse. I recently noticed after about 3 weeks in the treatment both my Melanarus and Lubbocks wrasse began flashing like crazy (like more flashing then I’ve seen with end stage velvet) and the Lubbocks developed what I can only describe as a rash. I immediately did a 50% water change and added carbon and cuprasorb. It’s been 3 days now and the fish are flashing less and the rash seems to be resolving. My question is should I restart the copper treatment at say a half dose for another month or if the fish appear asymptomatic should I move on to my usual prazipro treatment before adding to the display? Prior to removing the copper the qt has been at or above therapeutic levels for 4+ months as I did not treat my clowns and sixline for flukes as they have never displayed symptoms in the year plus I have had them.

Before I had my Hanna checker and was having trouble with copppersafe I noticed the same symptoms you are describing. I now believe that this was the result of copper poisoning not parasites.

I personally have lost all faith in the API kit used with coppersafe. It's hard to read.

If you are dosing per instructions with a recently purchased bottle you more than likely are anywhere between 2.3ppm-3.0ppm. 3.0 is getting up there in toxicity if that's the case, from my personal experiences. I would get a checker if you want to continue the use of coppersafe.

If you want a product that can he dosed by math with backup testing go with copper power. It is much more consistent. Still need to test frequently to confirm levels remain where desired.

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/ratios-for-dosing-copper-power.385871/

I would remove all copper and observe the fish. That's my .02

 

[Orcus Varuna]

Before I had my Hanna checker and was having trouble with copppersafe I noticed the same symptoms you are describing. I now believe that this was the result of copper poisoning not parasites.

I personally have lost all faith in the API kit used with coppersafe. It's hard to read.

If you are dosing per instructions with a recently purchased bottle you more than likely are anywhere between 2.3ppm-3.0ppm. 3.0 is getting up there in toxicity if that's the case, from my personal experiences. I would get a checker if you want to continue the use of coppersafe.

If you want a product that can he dosed by math with backup testing go with copper power. It is much more consistent. Still need to test frequently to confirm levels remain where desired.

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/ratios-for-dosing-copper-power.385871/

I would remove all copper and observe the fish. That's my .02

Awesome thank you for the confirmation. Well not awesome that my fish were being poisoned but you get the idea haha. These are the last fish I’m qting for this build so I’ll just observe them like you suggested. Thanks again

 

[chicago]

To all. You can , in my opinion, only use the dosage recommendation on the bottle as a guideline. Copper is absorbed. Replacing water is not perfect. Any ceramic or porous item will absorb the copper.. I was using chemetrics test kit which worked pretty well. Hanna has stepped up the game. Use the Hanna if you have not used Chemetrics for some time.. DO NOT GO BY THE BOTTLE DOSAGE WHEN DETERMINING THE LEVEL OF COPPER. sorry for the caps. Even when i replace water I do not go by the bottle exactly. The reason being if I forgot to shake the bottle one time, the dosage will be different as well the following ones.

I have used copper for years and other methods.. TTM Hypo ect. I am back to using copper safe. Have lost limited fish to copper and believe that was due to not have accurate kits... Time will tell with the Hanna now available.

 

[Orcus Varuna]

To all. You can , in my opinion, only use the dosage recommendation on the bottle as a guideline. Copper is absorbed. Replacing water is not perfect. Any ceramic or porous item will absorb the copper.. I was using chemetrics test kit which worked pretty well. Hanna has stepped up the game. Use the Hanna if you have not used Chemetrics for some time.. DO NOT GO BY THE BOTTLE DOSAGE WHEN DETERMINING THE LEVEL OF COPPER. sorry for the caps. Even when i replace water I do not go by the bottle exactly. The reason being if I forgot to shake the bottle one time, the dosage will be different as well the following ones.

I have used copper for years and other methods.. TTM Hypo ect. I am back to using copper safe. Have lost limited fish to copper and believe that was due to not have accurate kits... Time will tell with the Hanna now available.

I get that now but I had used coppersafe with minimal to no issues by just following the instructions on the bottle and making sure the api kit read somewhere above 2 for the past decade. My issues started with a new bottle I purchased in February when I was dosing my normal amount but the api kit was presenting a darker orange then the 4ppm color. I just chalked it up to the cheapo api test kit. But after my issues it definitely was not the kit. The manufacturer really needs to adjust the dosing recommendation ASAP or implement better quality control... The next time I set up a qt though I will definitely buy the Hannah checker just to be certain and use a different chelated copper product.

 

[chicago]

Orcus.. I hear you.. It can be the kit, it can be the cap on the bottle allowing evaporation and increase copper levels in the bottle, it can be plastic or not plastics absorbing, the list goes on... I have used copper for 30 plus years... We use to observe and pray.. years ago when using it.. Some of my fish only tanks always had some level of copper..before the days of sps and live rock ..and when we use to bleach the corals and replace.. ok. enough of memory lane..

We are now in a much better position.. i too notice the API test kits not so great... Chemetrics was better and Hanna.. well that is a game changer... Dont get hung up on the copper safe or copper power.. we need to test...test... and now it is much easier... If you really want you could make your own copper meds... order on line and mix up the product.. but that we will leave for another thread.. Good Luck.. go slow at first.. on new QT you may notice it takes some time to get to the proper level as the copper is being absorbed in place you did not think it would be..

 

[Sleepydoc]

Yes, having an accurate way to measure all forms of copper really is a game changer. The seachem test for Cupramine was reasonable, definitely more accurate than other tests, but the Hanna checker is an order of magnitude better.

It’s impossible to say for sure what’s causing the issues with Coppersafe weather it’s quality control/manufacturing issues or something else. I checked a brand new bottle and the dose was off by about 40% - evaporation can’t explain that, and absorption would drop the dose. Having an accurate way to test makes it usable, but you are still left to start off with a small test dose, check the concentration and calculate the proper dose. It just adds another level of complication and source of error that is unnecessary, IMO.

 

[HotRocks]

Yes, having an accurate way to measure all forms of copper really is a game changer. The seachem test for Cupramine was reasonable, definitely more accurate than other tests, but the Hanna checker is an order of magnitude better.

It’s impossible to say for sure what’s causing the issues with Coppersafe weather it’s quality control/manufacturing issues or something else. I checked a brand new bottle and the dose was off by about 40% - evaporation can’t explain that, and absorption would drop the dose. Having an accurate way to test makes it usable, but you are still left to start off with a small test dose, check the concentration and calculate the proper dose. It just adds another level of complication and source of error that is unnecessary, IMO.

The simple solution is to use copper power, IMO. I ordered more from another source recently, I tested all 3 bottles yesterday. (I am now up to checking around a dozen bottles from 3 different sources) They are all within +/-.05ppm of 2.5ppm. I just started another round of QT as well with some wrasse and other fish for @4FordFamily. Fish are settled in and eating. I started copper yesterday, again using copper power, 2 doses yesterday that should have gave me a reading of .25ppm and test was .27ppm. It doesn't get much closer than that! Just my .02

 

[pluikens]

I started copper yesterday, again using copper power, 2 doses yesterday that should have gave me a reading of .25ppm and test was .27ppm. It doesn't get much closer than that! Just my .02

I see what you did there!

 

[Orcus Varuna]

The simple solution is to use copper power, IMO. I ordered more from another source recently, I tested all 3 bottles yesterday. (I am now up to checking around a dozen bottles from 3 different sources) They are all within +/-.05ppm of 2.5ppm. I just started another round of QT as well with some wrasse and other fish for @4FordFamily. Fish are settled in and eating. I started copper yesterday, again using copper power, 2 doses yesterday that should have gave me a reading of .25ppm and test was .27ppm. It doesn't get much closer than that! Just my .02

Ya this sounds like a decent solution for my case. This qt has had copper in it for so long that it’s not actively being absorbed by any surfaces. I really just need the darn concentration to be what it says it should be on the bottle.

 

[chicago]

thanks for all the imput ... Nice... thank you...

 

[Greenstreet.1]

I see marine depot will be doing live testing this week of copper with Hanna checker. See how
Strong reefers are. That’s why we need to band copper safe.