Coral Beauty in qt. Looking for some advice maybe a reality check

mcdrichj

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So I got a captive bread coral beauty from my trusty lfs. The part of the system the fish was in is not running copper. The fish is tiny about the size of a dime or nickel. The fish was a little stressed when I added obviously but was eating later that day. Great the following day. Eating swimming around. So tonight I decided to start the first part copper. I read a bunch knowing dwarf angels are sensitive to copper so I decided to to slowly raise copper levels to see the reaction.

I dosed coppersafe and checked with hanna checker it was 0.6 a little above the 0.5 I was going for. The fish was fine for a little bit then started pacing. I turned the lights off and walked away for about 1.5-2 hours turned the room light on and still pacing agressivly. So at this point I tossed in some media to remove the copper came back in another hour its hanging out in the spot it like doing ok again. Just to add the qt tank is seeded and cycled ammonia is not present. I'm just more concerned because the fish is very small. If I did something wrong please let me know.

I contacted my vet in an atempt to get chloroquine phosphate as this could be a much safer alternative.

Am I being too paranoid?
Should I use a different copper?
Did I raise the copper too quickly?
Should I wait to see what the vet says about chloroquine phosphate?
Should I do something different like TTM?

Thanks
 
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vetteguy53081

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Forgot to add water is 77-78F salinity 34ppt ph 8.1.

10 gal tank
1 small powerhead
Hob ac20
2 pvc elbows for cover
50w heater
Coppersafe level is 2.25-2.5 for full 30 days and you want to obtain this level in 36-48 hours and this is the safest for this fish
Increase aeration with airstone during treatment
 
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mcdrichj

mcdrichj

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Coppersafe level is 2.25-2.5 for full 30 days and you want to obtain this level in 36-48 hours and this is the safest for this fish
Increase aeration with airstone during treatment
My concern is that dwarf angels are sensitive to copper thats why I removed the copper. I'm trying to stay on the side of caution. I also have Cupramine on hand too. The fish seemed very stressed hours after I added the first dose. I do understand that the fish needs to be in for 30 days at those levels. I just dont want to cause harm to the fish as it seems healthy with a preventative measure if I should use a different method.
 

Jay Hemdal

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My concern is that dwarf angels are sensitive to copper thats why I removed the copper. I'm trying to stay on the side of caution. I also have Cupramine on hand too. The fish seemed very stressed hours after I added the first dose. I do understand that the fish needs to be in for 30 days at those levels. I just dont want to cause harm to the fish as it seems healthy with a preventative measure if I should use a different method.

Cupramine is a bit harsher than coppersafe. The idea that pygmy angels are sensitive to copper stems from using ionic copper on them back in the day - that will stress them out. Coppersafe is well tolerated. The only thing I can think of is that either something else caused the pacing, or the fish, being really small has a much different surface to volume ratio and that is causing the copper to be more of an issue than it would in regular sized angels.

You could run hyposalinity - that would help with ich and flukes (but not velvet).

Jay
 
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Cupramine is a bit harsher than coppersafe. The idea that pygmy angels are sensitive to copper stems from using ionic copper on them back in the day - that will stress them out. Coppersafe is well tolerated. The only thing I can think of is that either something else caused the pacing, or the fish, being really small has a much different surface to volume ratio and that is causing the copper to be more of an issue than it would in regular sized angels.

You could run hyposalinity - that would help with ich and flukes (but not velvet).

Jay
I just found a post on Humblefish forums from @Humblefish where they state (about Dwarf Angels) "They seem to do better in Cupramine for some reason (which is the exact opposite for most other fish), and they do MUCH BETTER in Chloroquine if you can manage the biodegradation issues."

As a side note once I removed the copper from the tank the fish began acting normal again. This morning it seemed perfectly fine. It could be very much due to the size and age (as you stated) causing it to be more sensitive. After I added to copper to 0.6 ppm yesterday the fish was more stressed then when I initially added it to the qt tank. This behavior was noted hours after adding the copper. At this point im pretty gun shy about adding anymore copper.

At this point I'm going to wait for my vet to respond to see if I can acquire Chloroquine if I cant get any I will do modified TTM I will also do 2 rounds of prazipro.
 
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Jay Hemdal

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I just found a post on Humblefish forums from @Humblefish where they state (about Dwarf Angels) "They seem to do better in Cupramine for some reason (which is the exact opposite for most other fish), and they do MUCH BETTER in Chloroquine if you can manage the biodegradation issues."

As a side note once I removed the copper from the tank the fish began acting normal again. This morning it seemed perfectly fine. It could be very much due to the size and age (as you stated) causing it to be more sensitive. After I added to copper to 0.6 ppm yesterday the fish was more stressed then when I initially added it to the qt tank. This behavior was noted hours after adding the copper. At this point im pretty gun shy about adding anymore copper.

At this point I'm going to wait for my vet to respond to see if I can acquire Chloroquine if I cant get any I will do modified TTM I will also do 2 rounds of prazipro.

Chloroquine is not always well tolerated at treatment levels. I’ve stopped using it.
Search Google for Hemdal + Chloroquine for an article I did back when I was using it. (I’m on my phone and can’t link it for you).

Coppersafe and Copper Power have a much better toxicity track record than Cupramine does. I wonder if they were comparing Cupramine to copper/citric acid?

TTM and prazi will cover flukes and ich like hyposalinity will.

Jay
 
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mcdrichj

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Chloroquine is not always well tolerated at treatment levels. I’ve stopped using it.
Search Google for Hemdal + Chloroquine for an article I did back when I was using it. (I’m on my phone and can’t link it for you).

Coppersafe and Copper Power have a much better toxicity track record than Cupramine does. I wonder if they were comparing Cupramine to copper/citric acid?

TTM and prazi will cover flukes and ich like hyposalinity will.

Jay

Here is clip of the conversation that can be found here https://humble.fish/community/index.php?threads/new-recommendation-for-chelated-copper.6796/page-3

Its also said here with the addition of Chloroquine https://humble.fish/community/index...lfish-possible-copper-sensitivity.5642/page-3

1662476206388.png


According to HF the follow TTM schedule treats ich and velvet the link for this is here https://humble.fish/community/index.php?threads/tank-transfer-method.26/

1662476667516.png
 
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Chloroquine is not always well tolerated at treatment levels. I’ve stopped using it.
Search Google for Hemdal + Chloroquine for an article I did back when I was using it. (I’m on my phone and can’t link it for you).
Would this be the article you were talking about? I want to link it here because it could be helpful for everyone.

 
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mcdrichj

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Chloroquine is not always well tolerated at treatment levels. I’ve stopped using it.
Search Google for Hemdal + Chloroquine for an article I did back when I was using it. (I’m on my phone and can’t link it for you).

Coppersafe and Copper Power have a much better toxicity track record than Cupramine does. I wonder if they were comparing Cupramine to copper/citric acid?

TTM and prazi will cover flukes and ich like hyposalinity will.

Jay
Thanks for the advice and thats a great article! I made a second attempt at the copper safe and I have been increasing the copper level much more slowly and the fish seems to be dealing with it fine now. I treated with Prazipro first because I think there was another issue going on and the fish is doing much better now.
 

Jay Hemdal

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Thanks for the advice and thats a great article! I made a second attempt at the copper safe and I have been increasing the copper level much more slowly and the fish seems to be dealing with it fine now. I treated with Prazipro first because I think there was another issue going on and the fish is doing much better now.
Good to hear!

Coppersafe shouldn't need to be increased slowly. Many dealers put their fish right into full coppersafe upon arrival (I did that myself when I managed a store). The only reason to take it slower is if you are unsure of the volume of the tank. Adding and then testing allows you to not overshoot the mark.

Jay
 
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mcdrichj

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Good to hear!

Coppersafe shouldn't need to be increased slowly. Many dealers put their fish right into full coppersafe upon arrival (I did that myself when I managed a store). The only reason to take it slower is if you are unsure of the volume of the tank. Adding and then testing allows you to not overshoot the mark.

Jay
This is good to know. I'm at 1 ppm and the fish is still eating and acting normal so I will bump it up. Thank you!
 
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Jay Hemdal

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30 days of coppersafe is best. Cupramine is a bit harsher, so 15 days might be better tolerated. Remember the fish should also go through a prazi treatment. There are other issues that this regimen won’t take care of, but this gets about 80% of the contagious issues. Avoid using excess reducing agents (formalin, ammonia removers, dechlor) when using amine based copper products, the chemistry just isn’t well understood.
Jay
 
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30 days of coppersafe is best. Cupramine is a bit harsher, so 15 days might be better tolerated. Remember the fish should also go through a prazi treatment. There are other issues that this regimen won’t take care of, but this gets about 80% of the contagious issues. Avoid using excess reducing agents (formalin, ammonia removers, dechlor) when using amine based copper products, the chemistry just isn’t well understood.
Jay
Fantastic thanks for the info.

I will do 30 days in coppersafe. I did Prazipro treatment prior to the copper two doses spaced 6 days apart. I will finish with antibiotic mixed with food.

Thanks for taking the time to share your knowledge and experience it's greatly apricated. I plan on becoming a partner member and look forward to reading your PDF in a effort to gain more knowledge.

Rich
 
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