Coralvue Hydros vs. Apex

[Hasted]

Wait, if the internet goes down, or just the router? I'm sure I'm not the only one whose ISP goes down at least once every few months for several hours. Even if it's just wifi, I don't want to worry about my tank overheating/flooding if my router gets unplugged. Human error (me cleaning under my desk and disturbing it) scares me more than mechanical failure, although both are going to happen to my router.

Internet going down isn't much of an issue it seems.

If you do happen to bump your plug for your router somehow (?), the Control will spam you with alerts. If you are worried about it, you can set that to a "Red Alert" and have it send texts, emails, and audible alarm.

It all depends on your setup. Everyone is going to have different risks depending on their own equipment and programming. A Failed ON heater isn't going to do much for me since my 1st failsafe is my heater's thermostat, then the Inkbird, and then (when I even have it plugged in to the strip) the wifi strip. Very, very low risk. If you have huge heaters, a failed on could be a much higher risk.

Same with a dosing pump. If you're using something like the BRS 1.1mL/minute doser, a failed on is going to be a lot less dramatic than something like the Versa (300mL/minute).

--I don't have experience with the Versa doser so I not actually sure if that is an issue since it uses its own programming. My doser is the Kamoer X1 Pro and is connected to my "always on" strip and runs its own program.

So, weigh your risk and reward with what your equipment, goals, and desired programming are going to be. I have a near zero risk using the controller with my equipment, but not everyone is going to have that.

 

[shred5]

Right; but those things failed *off*. A heater or doser being stuck *on* can nuke the tank faster than off.

You should use a heater controller in addition to any Aquarium controller or at the least the thermostat from the heater. With any Aquarium Controller you should use a heat controller because those receptacles are not made to cycle as much as a heater does. I set my Aquarium Controller just slightly higher than the temp I want so the outlet is always on and use my Heat controller to actually turn the heaters on and off. This way if the heat controller does fails in the on position my Aquarium controller will shut the heat controller off. You could use the heater thermostat to do the same instead of a heat controller but I do not trust them.
So if wireless drops the receptacle will be on and the heat controller still controls it. Really simple.

Wait, if the internet goes down, or just the router? I'm sure I'm not the only one whose ISP goes down at least once every few months for several hours. Even if it's just wifi, I don't want to worry about my tank overheating/flooding if my router gets unplugged. Human error (me cleaning under my desk and disturbing it) scares me more than mechanical failure, although both are going to happen to my router.

That's a silly comparison. My cell phone can be off for a few hours without me dying. Heck, I go days in the woods without cell service.

A short time without electricity (especially if your powerheads have backups) isn't a major concern. A tank might survive 2 hours without power. It won't survive 2 hours of the heater being stuck on. It won't survive being dosed a full jug of alk. My floors won't survive my ATO being on for 2 hours. Failing "on" is worse than failing "off"

If your ISP goes down the whole system runs as it should and has nothing to do with internet.


Why is it a silly comparison. My phone drops WIFI/cell service far more than my home WIFI. I cant remember the last time my WIFI dropped. What if someone has a accident or the house starts on fire. You are trusting a cell phone correct? So you could be endangering something way more important than a fish tank someone life or your house. How many people have land lines now a days? Landlines are not the future same with wired networking. Wired still has the advantage of being more secure and also faster but that is changing too as WIFI speeds get faster. WIFI has the advantage of just picking up and moving something and being cheaper to install. It is especially used in existing building remodels. Even the light fixtures in building are now going WIFI we are seeing more and more of it..

Again read my statement above on the heat issue.

 

[JeffB418]

Wait, if the internet goes down, or just the router? I'm sure I'm not the only one whose ISP goes down at least once every few months for several hours. Even if it's just wifi, I don't want to worry about my tank overheating/flooding if my router gets unplugged. Human error (me cleaning under my desk and disturbing it) scares me more than mechanical failure, although both are going to happen to my router.

That's a silly comparison. My cell phone can be off for a few hours without me dying. Heck, I go days in the woods without cell service.

A short time without electricity (especially if your powerheads have backups) isn't a major concern. A tank might survive 2 hours without power. It won't survive 2 hours of the heater being stuck on. It won't survive being dosed a full jug of alk. My floors won't survive my ATO being on for 2 hours. Failing "on" is worse than failing "off"

There are things you can do to your Hydros environment to add additional redundancies around wifi/networking. Here are a few options, not saying these are required but if you want added protection it doesnt hurt:

Local network redundancy
1) Run a wired access point off your main router with the same SSID as your main router. Put this on a separate circuit/outlet than your router. If your router, or the AP goes down for some odd chance, your Hydros will automatically switch over and your local devices (wifi outlets, and Controls) will remain connected and communicating (regardless if your internet is out). You can find wired AP's for less than $50.

System redundancy
2) if you add multiple Control units in a collective, you gain redundancy to your wifi network. One device always remains as the master and others as slaves. All devices in a collective run the same config/programming, so if your master somehow goes out to lunch or dies, a slave device will become a master and tell your wifi outlets what to do. You can set an outlet to a fallback state if a sensor isnt available (for example the temp sensor was on the main device that died), so that you can force an output to OFF or ON if this situation occurs.


Less about redundancy but more about flexibility
3) you can take this a step further and actually actually connect devices in your collective to different SSIDs as long as they reside on the same LAN. So if you setup multiple wired access points with independent names, you can have the master connect to one, and slaves connect to others. The only gotcha in this situation is that WiFi outlets can only be paired to a single SSID (during pairing, which ever SSID the MASTER collective device is connected to, is what the wifi outlet will use). This situation is more handy in cases where you have a large setup that spans a great distance.

I actually have my setup this way since I have a fish room with hydros devices on a dedicated wired AP with its own SSID for hydros only, and then more Hydros devices in my basement that can't reach the fish room SSID reliability so I have a second dedicated wired AP in that area for those. I have been running this system hard like this for months and have had no issue but planning on adding redundant SSID APs in the fish room just incase. Long term plan is to move over all system critical devices (heaters, pumps, ato) to the wired power bar coming out, but for now I have been running all devices off 8 wifi power bars with no failures or issues.

That being said back to the heater or ATO situation you talk about. To really failsafe your setup you should use a secondary heater controller if you use a wifi outlet, and ATOs should be connected to the Drive port on the device. Either using a relay or a 12V Hydros pump. Or you can do what I did for one of my tanks, I ran my ATO pump in my basement with a single wifi outlet, then at the tank side I put a Hydros Liquid Solenoid inline with the ATO hose that directly connects to the drive port. The wifi outlet and solenoid are programmed to be on/off together, so if for some reason the wifi outlet did get stuck on due to a router issue, the solenoid at the tank side would act as my direct wired fail safe. You could do the same locally if you wanted the protection.

 

[reeferKen]

Anyone know what Threatened Controller Manufacturer this is? They didn't mention one, Thanks in advance
https://reefbuilders.com/2020/10/30...to-shut-out-new-lower-cost-hydros-controller/

 

[JeffB418]

Anyone know what Threatened Controller Manufacturer this is? They didn't mention one, Thanks in advance
https://reefbuilders.com/2020/10/30...to-shut-out-new-lower-cost-hydros-controller/

The style is called GX12 which stands for 12mm version. The mating connectors are commonly found on Amazon and eBay by searching for GX12-x where x is the number of pins. Coralvue is going to be stocking and selling the mates soon on their website for DIY projects.

 

[burningmime]

Why is it a silly comparison. My phone drops WIFI/cell service far more than my home WIFI. I cant remember the last time my WIFI dropped. What if someone has a accident or the house starts on fire. You are trusting a cell phone correct? So you could be endangering something way more important than a fish tank someone life or your house.

It's an extrodinarily silly comparison, and the fact you don't get it makes it even sillier. A cell phone is not life support; it's a helpful tool for communication.

If your cell phone goes out, 99.999% of the time, there won't be any emergency. My cell phone crashed some time the other night (Android issues...) and was off for several hours without me knowing about it before I turned it back on. I didn't die. If my house is on fire, the first thing I would do is not to reach for my phone -- cellular or land line -- it would be to either grab the extinguisher if the fire is small, or get out and go to a neighbor's house. I don't trust my phone with the ability to put out or protect from fire.

A heater in a tank is life support. If it gets stuck on, it will 100% crash your tank in a few hours (assuming it's powerful enough). You're saying that the Hydros is too untrustworthy for a heater, so you need to use a separate controller with a temp probe. Now I agree it's smart to have redundancy there, and probably shouldn't use the controller outlets for a heater. But with an Apex, wifi could go off for an extended period of time, and it will still power cycle the heater appropriately, even without a separate heater controller.

There is an inherent additional point of failure in the Hydros that's not present in the Apex. Don't get me wrong, I think Neptune needs some viable competition, and Hydros seems like a better bet than GHL to take the #2 spot. However, wifi power strips feels like a bad idea, and the more mitigations I read about (eg separate routers with separate SSIDs) the more convinced I am of that.

 

[n2585722]

It's an extrodinarily silly comparison, and the fact you don't get it makes it even sillier. A cell phone is not life support; it's a helpful tool for communication.

If your cell phone goes out, 99.999% of the time, there won't be any emergency. My cell phone crashed some time the other night (Android issues...) and was off for several hours without me knowing about it before I turned it back on. I didn't die. If my house is on fire, the first thing I would do is not to reach for my phone -- cellular or land line -- it would be to either grab the extinguisher if the fire is small, or get out and go to a neighbor's house. I don't trust my phone with the ability to put out or protect from fire.

A heater in a tank is life support. If it gets stuck on, it will 100% crash your tank in a few hours (assuming it's powerful enough). You're saying that the Hydros is too untrustworthy for a heater, so you need to use a separate controller with a temp probe. Now I agree it's smart to have redundancy there, and probably shouldn't use the controller outlets for a heater. But with an Apex, wifi could go off for an extended period of time, and it will still power cycle the heater appropriately, even without a separate heater controller.

There is an inherent additional point of failure in the Hydros that's not present in the Apex. Don't get me wrong, I think Neptune needs some viable competition, and Hydros seems like a better bet than GHL to take the #2 spot. However, wifi power strips feels like a bad idea, and the more mitigations I read about (eg separate routers with separate SSIDs) the more convinced I am of that.

Check this out They did a workshop on heaters.

 

[kutcha]

so here is my question why do these power bars not have the capability to remember the on/off presets? I have a 40 dollar 6 port wifi controllable power strip that I run my lights on and the power strip will remember the on/off schedule even when not connected to any wifi/internet. I Changed ISP's and the power strip kept chugging along with the previously set on/off schedule for each outlet.

 

[shred5]

so here is my question why do these power bars not have the capability to remember the on/off presets? I have a 40 dollar 6 port wifi controllable power strip that I run my lights on and the power strip will remember the on/off schedule even when not connected to any wifi/internet. I Changed ISP's and the power strip kept chugging along with the previously set on/off schedule for each outlet.

Because most of the stuff on a WifI power strip is based on nothing but a timer. Most stuff on a controller Wifi strip is based off probes and sensors and other equipment. For example how does a Wi-Fi strip turn on a ATO pump when it does not have a sensor? How is it supposed to remember something that is based on something else. How does it shut off the skimmer pump if the collection cup is full with out a sensor. How does a Wifi strip turn of a fan or chiller without a probe? They cant and most things that run on a Controllers Wifi strips are based on other equipment.

And for those who do not get Wifi they are per faq here launching a wired strip.

HYDROS FAQs - Frequently Asked Questions about HYDROS products

Got questions about CoralVue HYDROS products? We've got answers! Check out our HYDROS FAQs to learn about the Control 2, Control 4, WaveEngine and more!

www.coralvuehydros.com

We have two alternatives in the works for hobbyists that prefer wired outlets. We plan to make a formal announcement about these new HYDROS solutions before the end of the year. We have no intention of replacing WiFi outlets as a power source option in the HYDROS universe. These wired solutions will operate in parallel with the wireless outlets so HYDROS can satisfy the needs of more hobbyists.

 

[kutcha]

Because most of the stuff on a WifI power strip is based on nothing but a timer. Most stuff on a controller Wifi strip is based off probes and sensors and other equipment. For example how does a Wi-Fi strip turn on a ATO pump when it does not have a sensor? How is it supposed to remember something that is based on something else. How does it shut off the skimmer pump if the collection cup is full with out a sensor. How does a Wifi strip turn of a fan or chiller without a probe? They cant and most things that run on a Controllers Wifi strips are based on other equipment.

And for those who do not get Wifi they are per faq here launching a wired strip.

HYDROS FAQs - Frequently Asked Questions about HYDROS products

Got questions about CoralVue HYDROS products? We've got answers! Check out our HYDROS FAQs to learn about the Control 2, Control 4, WaveEngine and more!

www.coralvuehydros.com

@shred5 so that makes sense for the things controlled by probe reading but what about things that just require a timing schedule will the hydro power strips hold those settings through a wifi outage? i ask these questions because i have a unopened Hydro 4 bundle with ATO bundle and extra water level sensor at home waiting for me to return from deployment to set up my new setup and if it cant keep the lighting schedule i will have to keep my current wifi strip for my lighting schedules. NBD i just want to make sure i have all the info so i can make the correct move

 

[burningmime]

Because most of the stuff on a WifI power strip is based on nothing but a timer. Most stuff on a controller Wifi strip is based off probes and sensors and other equipment. For example how does a Wi-Fi strip turn on a ATO pump when it does not have a sensor? How is it supposed to remember something that is based on something else. How does it shut off the skimmer pump if the collection cup is full with out a sensor. How does a Wifi strip turn of a fan or chiller without a probe? They cant and most things that run on a Controllers Wifi strips are based on other equipment.

And for those who do not get Wifi they are per faq here launching a wired strip.

HYDROS FAQs - Frequently Asked Questions about HYDROS products

Got questions about CoralVue HYDROS products? We've got answers! Check out our HYDROS FAQs to learn about the Control 2, Control 4, WaveEngine and more!

www.coralvuehydros.com

 

[shred5]

@shred5 so that makes sense for the things controlled by probe reading but what about things that just require a timing schedule will the hydro power strips hold those settings through a wifi outage? i ask these questions because i have a unopened Hydro 4 bundle with ATO bundle and extra water level sensor at home waiting for me to return from deployment to set up my new setup and if it cant keep the lighting schedule i will have to keep my current wifi strip for my lighting schedules. NBD i just want to make sure i have all the info so i can make the correct move

That is something you have to decide.
Maybe you need to wait for the wired strips if it makes you feel better.
Wireless network is not less reliable than a wired network. There is no reason for it to be if stuff is in range and set up correctly. There has to be a power outage or hardware fail on either side. A signal is a signal and is generated somehow.

The only thing is your wireless router is added in the the equation vs directly hooked up to a power strip. Can a router fail sure but it has been a longtime since I have had one fail but I have and they used to all the time. They have got better over the years. A router Failing can happen wired or wireless network. You are putting a router and a network in-between so it is a added failure point. I just feel it is extremely small.
Wireless is slower and less secure for sure.

Honestly maybe if you are gone so much a controller is bad for you period because it is one thing added to the equation that can fail period. A controller is not for everyone. Look At the Apex thread and all the premature power strip failures because of cheap capacitors used. You might need a monitor instead and not use it to actually control anything with a controller. There always is going to be some risk involved when you add things to the equation.

Main pumps for example how many people run just one? To me this is a huge failure point but how many run two?
to me it is a bigger risk. If you leave allot I would at least have a heater in tank and in sump incase it fails. That pump is big failure point. I have had the power go out and not had the main pump start before but again how many people run one main pump or have heaters in tank if the pump stops. Probably not a huge issue down south most of the time.

The problem with a controller is it does add a failure point also. Matter fact it can add a single failure point for allot of people who do not have back up plans. The more you have hooked up to it the more stuff it can take out if it fails.

One more thing is if you have multiple Hydros controllers if one goes out the other can take over unlike other controllers with a central brain. The brain dies everything is out on all other controllers. They do not have redundancy like the Hydros has if set up as a collective. So there is something to think about.

There is risk no matter what, you have to decide what is more risk for you. The least amount of risk is not using a controller period and using it just to monitor the situation or just buying a aquarium monitor.

 

[kutcha]

That is something you have to decide.
Maybe you need to wait for the wired strips if it makes you feel better.
Wireless network is not less reliable than a wired network. There is no reason for it to be if stuff is in range and set up correctly. There has to be a power outage or hardware fail on either side. A signal is a signal and is generated somehow.

The only thing is your wireless router is added in the the equation vs directly hooked up to a power strip. Can a router fail sure but it has been a longtime since I have had one fail but I have and they used to all the time. They have got better over the years. A router Failing can happen wired or wireless network. You are putting a router and a network in-between so it is a added failure point. I just feel it is extremely small.
Wireless is slower and less secure for sure.

Honestly maybe if you are gone so much a controller is bad for you period because it is one thing added to the equation that can fail period. A controller is not for everyone. Look At the Apex thread and all the premature power strip failures because of cheap capacitors used. You might need a monitor instead and not use it to actually control anything with a controller. There always is going to be some risk involved when you add things to the equation.

Main pumps for example how many people run just one? To me this is a huge failure point but how many run two?
to me it is a bigger risk. If you leave allot I would at least have a heater in tank and in sump incase it fails. That pump is big failure point. I have had the power go out and not had the main pump start before but again how many people run one main pump or have heaters in tank if the pump stops. Probably not a huge issue down south most of the time.

The problem with a controller is it does add a failure point also. Matter fact it can add a single failure point for allot of people who do not have back up plans. The more you have hooked up to it the more stuff it can take out if it fails.

One more thing is if you have multiple Hydros controllers if one goes out the other can take over unlike other controllers with a central brain. The brain dies everything is out on all other controllers. They do not have redundancy like the Hydros has if set up as a collective. So there is something to think about.

There is risk no matter what, you have to decide what is more risk for you. The least amount of risk is not using a controller period and using it just to monitor the situation or just buying a aquarium monitor.

So it doesn't so much have to do with risk when it comes to the light cycles more as a ease of access and i do not leave all that often I just happen to be deployed at this time and my wife is still at home with the tank every day. also wired or wireless doesnt matter to me i am literally just asking if it can perform the lighting schedule and maintain the schedule through a ISP drop (would be the same answer for both wired and wireless) if not cool ill just keep my lights on my current wifi outlets as they will keep my timers. I do enjoy the fact that they are using a mesh topology over a star topology structure as the mesh allows for a larger leniency of incase a single piece fails others can pick up its slack till you repair the break.

 

[n2585722]

So it doesn't so much have to do with risk when it comes to the light cycles more as a ease of access and i do not leave all that often I just happen to be deployed at this time and my wife is still at home with the tank every day. also wired or wireless doesnt matter to me i am literally just asking if it can perform the lighting schedule and maintain the schedule through a ISP drop (would be the same answer for both wired and wireless) if not cool ill just keep my lights on my current wifi outlets as they will keep my timers. I do enjoy the fact that they are using a mesh topology over a star topology structure as the mesh allows for a larger leniency of incase a single piece fails others can pick up its slack till you repair the break.

If internet is dropped the Hydros will continue as long as the wifi and router are still functioning. The Hydros Control communicates with the wifi strips via the local network once they are linked to each other. There are also drive ports on the Control 2 and Control 4. I use these for ATO, AWC and dosing. I have one Control 4 and two Control 2's and I have 5 of the drive ports in use. I also have two of the XS controllers. I have lousy internet service it goes out several times a day. So I get quit a few text about the Control units and the WiFi strips. If they loose connection with the cloud I get a text for each device that is not connected including the wifi strips.

 

[DWill]

I’ve been running a Hydros in parallel with my Apex for a while now. My opinion is based on setting up and using both. In my opinion the Hydros is light years ahead of Neptune (Apex) in terms of ease of use and overall quality. Aesthetically I like my Apex a little better but that’s where it ends.

My opinion is Neptune doesn’t have the vision or engineering capacity to catch CV on the Hydros. Sometimes being the only game in town causes you to become complacent. Of you don’t innovative and keep up with technology it might take you too much time to catch up before you get displaced by a new competitor with a more modern product, especially a more modern product with far better quality.

 

[Manny’s Reef]

I’ve been running a Hydros in parallel with my Apex for a while now. My opinion is based on setting up and using both. In my opinion the Hydros is light years ahead of Neptune (Apex) in terms of ease of use and overall quality. Aesthetically I like my Apex a little better but that’s where it ends.

My opinion is Neptune doesn’t have the vision or engineering capacity to catch CV on the Hydros. Sometimes being the only game in town causes you to become complacent. Of you don’t innovative and keep up with technology it might take you too much time to catch up before you get displaced by a new competitor with a more modern product, especially a more modern product with far better quality.

I’m a GHL user personally but can you give examples of what you are referring to?

 

[Wildreefs]

Man after reading all this, and seeing the similarities of Apex to Apple, I will for sure not be buying an APEX.

 

[DWill]

Man after reading all this, and seeing the similarities of Apex to Apple, I will for sure not be buying an APEX.

What? Comparing Neptune to Apple is like comparing a Model A Ford to a 2031 Ferrari. You really can’t compare Apex to anything too modern the technology it runs on and the user interface are straight pit of the lat 70s, early 80s

 

[Kfactor]

If you want PH on a Hydros it will cost $450 then another $40 for 8 outlets. That puts it squarely in the ApexEL $500 pricing and above the Profilux Mini which is $350. The $200 Hydros cannot do PH... it has no probe ports.

Even worse a new aquarist buys the Hydros 2 then later decides they want PH... that is going to be another $350 because the only way to add probes onto the Hydros 2 currently is to buy a Hydros 4.

Hydros should have created a single head unit kit at say $200 then make the probe ports a cheap add on at say $50 or $100 with the probe. Then someone could comfortably buy the Hydros 2 kit and upgrade later if they chose. In that scenario, there is no Hydros 4 just a bigger bundle with the probe expansion, PH probe and two power bricks. I would also offer an optional hardwired power brick or even better if the bricks maintained the program so the wifi is just there for statuses and updates. Throw in some advanced programming, power monitoring and now we are talking!

What the community needs is the Reefkeeper Lite back. Something basic, expandable and inexpensive.

I know this is a old post but I have been looking in to the hydros and everything you said is right on the money . I think this is why I might have to go with a apex I know there stuff to add on is more but in the end I think it’s worth it I hope lol

 

[JeffB418]

I know this is a old post but I have been looking in to the hydros and everything you said is right on the money . I think this is why I might have to go with a apex I know there stuff to add on is more but in the end I think it’s worth it I hope lol

There are more Hydros products coming out in the future that will help fill in the gaps and make the system more customizable. Unfortunately the shortage of electrical components have delayed many of these new products and Coralvue will not release any information until they have product ready to release. They sound like they are close to announcing the next product that will complement the Control 2, Control 4 and Control XS.