Cost Of Equipment Is Out Of Hand

[joshwaggs]

Ok, I’m sure I’m preaching to the choir here; but, can we address the prices of most aquarium equipment?
It’s insane. $500 for a controller (just the controller, no probes or modules), $300 for a wave maker. $700 for a light. I’ll be blunt, here - nothing on that list costs that much money to make and market. To the economics majors out there, yeah, yeah, yeah, I know. A product is worth as much as the market can absorb; but I think that is a moot point here. This is pretty much a closed market. A few manufacturers offering specialty products, which means they can charge what they want.

Stop and think for a minute, though. Is aquarium equipment really specialty equipment? Is it? Really?

Let’s get to the brass tacks. The majority of aquarium equipment is literally existing technology and gadgetry that is thrown in a box and marked with “aquarium.” Sure, most things have small modifications to make the product suitable for use in or near water, but not much more.
A wave maker for example: what is it? Seriously, what does it really consist of? A fan, some wire, and a power modulator. Hell, some even have remote control ability via apps or the internet; but does that make it specialty? Does the ability to control the underwater fan via remote control, a specialty? What does it take to make something remote controllable? If that’s the case, then we’ve all been duped. Bluetooth and internet connectivity are not expensive endeavors, nor are the UI’s and coding to make everything seamless. And seriously, most of those UI’s and coding look like a fifth grader did it. Most of the apps are clunky and the web pages look like something designed in Windows ME.

How about controllers and “modules”?
(looking at you, Neptune)
Controllers, when you get down to the brass tacks, are not complicated devices. The technology is not advanced and is not new; but throw the word “aquarium” on it and all of a sudden they are ground breaking devices. Hell, for a while Neptune was relying on crowd sourcing for getting customers technical support. How is that right? It isn’t, but we still paid 500 to 800 dollars for the experience (yes, I was one of them).

I get it. We pay for convenience and reefing is an expensive hobby, but it doesn’t need to be. We, the hobbyists, need to start pushing back a little.

 

[madweazl]

Sounds like you're all ready to get a wavemaker up and running for the betterment of mankind, make it happen.

 

[ndrwater]

This is an expensive hobby. Period... Unless you are willing to put up with shoddy craftsmanship, or go old-school with an airstone and plastic decorations, it's kind of the way it is.
R and D costs money, materials cost money. Labor, the most expensive of all, costs money.. fish, corals, rock, all come from somewhere far away and freight, costs money.. You can do without a controller, powerhead live rock from a far off land and exotic fish. But...

 

[joshwaggs]

Sounds like you're all ready to get a wavemaker up and running for the betterment of mankind, make it happen.

Ah, the ol’ “well, if it’s so easy then you do it” argument. Fact is, none of the companies that are marketing these things are new, nor are they some garage operation. They are usually pretty big (service area wise). That means that at that level of manufacturing, all they do is come up with an idea, design it, then they order it from China. The most that is done outside of that is usually coding and development. They aren’t doing things from scratch.

And I’m not saying they should offer it for free. I’m saying we (as the source of their income and purpose) should be pushing back on the ridiculous prices of things that simply don’t cost that much to make.
Hobbyists are always saying they want more people in the hobby. Well, your single, biggest limiting factor in getting new people in the hobby is price. If people can’t afford get basic equipment, then they can’t get into the hobby.

 

[BeejReef]

Ok, I’m sure I’m preaching to the choir here; but, can we address the prices of most aquarium equipment?
It’s insane. $500 for a controller (just the controller, no probes or modules), $300 for a wave maker. $700 for a light. I’ll be blunt, here - nothing on that list costs that much money to make and market. To the economics majors out there, yeah, yeah, yeah, I know. A product is worth as much as the market can absorb; but I think that is a moot point here. This is pretty much a closed market. A few manufacturers offering specialty products, which means they can charge what they want.

Stop and think for a minute, though. Is aquarium equipment really specialty equipment? Is it? Really?

Let’s get to the brass tacks. The majority of aquarium equipment is literally existing technology and gadgetry that is thrown in a box and marked with “aquarium.” Sure, most things have small modifications to make the product suitable for use in or near water, but not much more.
A wave maker for example: what is it? Seriously, what does it really consist of? A fan, some wire, and a power modulator. Hell, some even have remote control ability via apps or the internet; but does that make it specialty? Does the ability to control the underwater fan via remote control, a specialty? What does it take to make something remote controllable? If that’s the case, then we’ve all been duped. Bluetooth and internet connectivity are not expensive endeavors, nor are the UI’s and coding to make everything seamless. And seriously, most of those UI’s and coding look like a fifth grader did it. Most of the apps are clunky and the web pages look like something designed in Windows ME.

How about controllers and “modules”?
(looking at you, Neptune)
Controllers, when you get down to the brass tacks, are not complicated devices. The technology is not advanced and is not new; but throw the word “aquarium” on it and all of a sudden they are ground breaking devices. Hell, for a while Neptune was relying on crowd sourcing for getting customers technical support. How is that right? It isn’t, but we still paid 500 to 800 dollars for the experience (yes, I was one of them).

I get it. We pay for convenience and reefing is an expensive hobby, but it doesn’t need to be. We, the hobbyists, need to start pushing back a little.

I was grousing about the same earlier... frustrated that I spent more on test kits and an algae magnet than in my used tank and stand.. lol. Then I hit "proceed to checkout."

I'll fight the power w u. Diy ats and legacy lights [emoji2]

No way around the controller I can see. In my mind, it is worth it IF they don't come out w a new model every 3 years. If u think about the programming/OS, it's in line w other proprietary software licenses. It does seem excessive that almost every device needs a module though. The trade needs a nice merger or two!

 

[madweazl]

Ah, the ol’ “well, if it’s so easy then you do it” argument. Fact is, none of the companies that are marketing these things are new, nor are they some garage operation. They are usually pretty big (service area wise). That means that at that level of manufacturing, all they do is come up with an idea, design it, then they order it from China. The most that is done outside of that is usually coding and development. They aren’t doing things from scratch.

Who makes a product equivalent to the Vortech series of powerheads? You're obviously clueless about what it takes to get something to market.

 

[Todd A.]

I completely agree. My opinion is that marine & reef aquariums are considered a "rich man's" hobby although most of us are certainly not. In fact I'm much poorer because of it. Manufacturers will intentionally price gouge on anything considered a specialty. No different than having to pay three of four times the cost for a pair of sneakers because of a "swoosh" and an athlete's name. I recently upgraded from my first saltwater tank (a 90 gal) to 210. I saved about $7k in order to build it the way I wanted and spent every dime. And that's with no controllers, sensors or dosing equipment. The pricing is clear when you look at what you can make a DYI reactor or sump/refugium for versus purchasing a "name brand". But like many others, I'm obsessed with my tank and will spend whatever it takes to make its inhabitants happy and healthy. Or whatever my wife will let me spend.

 

[count krunk]

you can build a DIY controller using raspberry PI. there is lots of info out there. I plan on building one at some point. "

May i introduce you to jebao? they are much cheaper, and most of the time quite reliable. 2022 the MP's patent expires i am pretty sure. Jebao will have one on the market in no time.

 

[joshwaggs]

Who makes a product equivalent to the Vortech series of powerheads? You're obviously clueless about what it takes to get something to market.

You are sorely mistaken.

Also, yes, vortechs are great, but do you really think 400 to 800 dollars for a freakin underwater fan is reasonable? I can buy a cell phone for less than that.

 

[BeejReef]

I completely agree. My opinion is that marine & reef aquariums are considered a "rich man's" hobby although most of us are certainly not. In fact I'm much poorer because of it. Manufacturers will intentionally price gouge on anything considered a specialty. No different than having to pay three of four times the cost for a pair of sneakers because of a "swoosh" and an athlete's name. I recently upgraded from my first saltwater tank (a 90 gal) to 210. I saved about $7k in order to build it the way I wanted and spent every dime. And that's with no controllers, sensors or dosing equipment. The pricing is clear when you look at what you can make a DYI reactor or sump/refugium for versus purchasing a "name brand". But like many others, I'm obsessed with my tank and will spend whatever it takes to make its inhabitants happy and healthy. Or whatever my wife will let me spend.

What I find interesting is the price differential btwn new gear and 4 mo old gear from some poor soul who crashed out of the hobby. Unless it is absolutely top shelf gear, they can hardly give it away.

 

[count krunk]

also, most gear lasts a long time. I picked up a 200GPD aqua rx 6 stage ro/di for $150. it's at least 7 years old i would say.

you can save a ton of money used, or DIY. one reason i like this hobby is it is DIY friendly.

such as protein skimmers, you an build one. or buy one that is 15 years old. I plan on getting a 5-10 year old one in the next year for around $80. they are out there. it can be done.

 

[joshwaggs]

What I find interesting is the price differential btwn new gear and 4 mo old gear from some poor soul who crashed out of the hobby. Unless it is absolutely top shelf gear, they can hardly give it away.

Yeah. I’ve been in that boat. It is sad.

 

[Fritzhamer]

I really don’t get these posts. The black box stuff you refer to exists and exists at a super low price point. You want $50 reef lights? They are out there. You want a $30 wave maker, tons of those too. You want support and a quality product? Not at that price point.

You get what you pay for. Sometimes going through four pumps in two years is a better choice than the cost of one really good pump in two years. I’m at a point in my life where I’m happy to pay for the guarantee of reliability. Twenty years ago I was wiring and building my own stuff for cheap.

 

[madweazl]

You are sorely mistaken.

Also, yes, vortechs are great, but do you really think 400 to 800 dollars for a freakin underwater fan is reasonable?

Prove me wrong, you seem to have the answers. Things like tooling costs, na, no problem, these are big companies...

 

[joshwaggs]

you can build a DIY controller using raspberry PI. there is lots of info out there. I plan on building one at some point. "

May i introduce you to jebao? they are much cheaper, and most of the time quite reliable. 2022 the MP's patent expires i am pretty sure. Jebao will have one on the market in no time.

Jebaos are fantastic!

I only used the wave maker as an example. I’ll never spend that kind of money on something like a Vortech or a Nero 5

 

[AllSignsPointToFish]

you can build a DIY controller using raspberry PI. there is lots of info out there. I plan on building one at some point. "

May i introduce you to jebao? they are much cheaper, and most of the time quite reliable. 2022 the MP's patent expires i am pretty sure. Jebao will have one on the market in no time.

I agree. I've been running the same Jebao pump and wavemakers for three years. I maintain them fairly frequently, and I just had the first one die on me . It was the small one that got the least maintenance... I'm sure that's not a coincidence .

 

[AllSignsPointToFish]

you can build a DIY controller using raspberry PI. there is lots of info out there. I plan on building one at some point. "

May i introduce you to jebao? they are much cheaper, and most of the time quite reliable. 2022 the MP's patent expires i am pretty sure. Jebao will have one on the market in no time.

Double post. My bad.

 

[ndrwater]

You are sorely mistaken.

Also, yes, vortechs are great, but do you really think 400 to 800 dollars for a freakin underwater fan is reasonable? I can buy a cell phone for less than that.

Prove me wrong, you seem to have the answers. Things like tooling costs, na, no problem, these are big companies...

We can agree to disagree, but stay on topic and be civil... This is supposed to be a fun hobby...

 

[joshwaggs]

I really don’t get these posts. The black box stuff you refer to exists and exists at a super low price point. You want $50 reef lights? They are out there. You want a $30 wave maker, tons of those too. You want support and a quality product? Not at that price point.

You get what you pay for. Sometimes going through four pumps in two years is a better choice than the cost of one really good pump in two years. I’m at a point in my life where I’m happy to pay for the guarantee of reliability. Twenty years ago I was wiring and building my own stuff for cheap.

Completely agree. Which is the basis of my post. The cheap stuff is out there. Which means it can be made for a lot cheaper. Which means there is a middle road, here; but if we as consumers don’t push for a middle of the road product, we won’t get it.

 

[joshwaggs]

Prove me wrong, you seem to have the answers. Things like tooling costs, na, no problem, these are big companies...

Tooling costs? The ones in China, you mean? Right? They aren’t being “tooled” in the US. Look up how much those costs are for products manufactured at given volume.

Also, I don’t mean to sound rude.