Cost Of Equipment Is Out Of Hand

[Zerobytes]

Seems like with any domain there are cheaper, more expensive, and outrageous versions of any entity you may want to purchase.

It's only over-priced if you you choose to pay over-priced.

 

[User1]

Agreed on the second part of this post.

However, I looked into reef angel, and from my understanding not only is the quality in things like USB ports sometimes lacking (since it's a one-man show trying to come in under the Neptune's price), but for the same reason manufacture support is spotty, and it has only basic viability for someone who can't manage/troubleshoot a computer and program C. Further, I understand that there's no interface for Maxpect, Ecotech/Vortech products; it can only work with products that basically run on a 0-10v connection.

That automatically makes it a niche product.

There are some quality issues no doubt. I had two temp connectors break on the main board but the 3rd still worked In any case you are correct. There is a wizard to get you started. You want the fancy routines like geo location, tides, and other simulations then you need to understand code. It isn't pretty like the larger brands. It does work with vortechs and jabeo's via a 30 dollar cable.

But yes you raised some valid points. I used one with good success for close to 10 years. Support isn't bad and forums usually answer the rest. I did have a display go out which they replaced for free. I did not upgrade to the new star unit and went with apex. In the end if you start buying the add ons before you know it you are at apex/ghl price anyway. But it is a option is all I meant.

 

[Sealion]

you can build a DIY controller using raspberry PI. there is lots of info out there. I plan on building one at some point. "

May i introduce you to jebao? they are much cheaper, and most of the time quite reliable. 2022 the MP's patent expires i am pretty sure. Jebao will have one on the market in no time.

I’m using a jebao, and have great results so far. I also made a DIY CO2 scrubber. I have a RO/DI and saltwater system that I spent good money on for storage tanks and an excellent pump that will last for a long time.

 

[Sealion]

I’m willing to spend money on good quality items where it gives me the best return. I’ll figure out how to make something when I can to save some money. I have a stirrer that I use when testing the water. It gives me better results than if I just shake the test bottles. So with better results I can dose the right amount of chemicals and save money in the long run. I use good quality salt mix for water changes, I’ve tried 2 different brands and came back to the first one I used.

 

[AllSignsPointToFish]

I have a stirrer that I use when testing the water. It gives me better results than if I just shake the test bottles. So with better results I can dose the right amount of chemicals and save money in the long run.

I agree totally on the stirrer! I actually built my own out of a spare computer fan, some leftover magnets, and an unused 12V power supply Really increases agitation during testing while cutting down on time.

 

[Mical]

After 20 pages - if any of you have any ecotech vortecs you're tossing PM me. I've fixed a half dozen or so bearings. Same with Kessil 360s fans..

 

[AllSignsPointToFish]

After 20 pages - if any of you have any ecotech vortecs you're tossing PM me. I've fixed a half dozen or so bearings. Same with Kessil 360s fans..

Off topic, but maybe you could post the Kessil fan replacement instructions in a separate article for us Kessil users?

 

[randoma]

The thing about this thread is I can think of multiple middle of the road products. And guess what, nobody buys them. Look up a coralbox rn-1 for me and tell me how many people use it? Almost exactly like a Nero but less than half the price. Reefbreeders LEDS are another fantastic example. Very rare but they are the product everyone is asking for on here. I can think of two cheap reef controllers right now. And dosing pumps. But I can’t think a single tank I have seen them utlized in.

Actually, I have a couple RP-M's (Reefbreeder's version of the CoralBox RN-1), I'm very happy with them. However, I recently purchased a couple used Nero 5's rather than another pair of RP-M's. Why? Because I want to be able to control them with an app - the RP-M allows limited programming, but it is a pain in the butt and is limited. The Nero 5 has a nice programming interface and allows me to use the same app as I use for my Hydras.

That said, a large reason why I purchased the Nero 5's was, I got them used for about the same price as it would cost for a new RP-M + Apex adapter. The cost of a new Nero-5 ($270ish) compared to $180-200ish for a new RP-M + WiFi Adapter, would be a much harder decision. Although, in the end, if a pair of Nero 5's hadn't been available at a price I was willing to pay, at the time I needed them, I probably would have gone with another pair of RP-M's and saved a couple hundred dollars.

I also run all Jebao pumps for returns, with a couple spares, it still costs way less than high end pumps. However, I think there is a certain stigma attached to the lower end products. Do a search for Jebao or Coral Box products and see how many people are "certain" that your tank will blow up if you don't use high end products, despite the fact that they've never actually used the products in question themselves.

But then, I use an ATO that I built myself for $50 in parts, including a surplus medical grade peristaltic pump - yet a lot of people have been convinced that it is necessary to spend $100-200 on a Tunze Osmolator. Incidentally, I own a Tunze - it has both failed too low and failed too high. My home built ATO has been much more reliable. You can spend as much, or as little, as you want in this hobby - the only thing you really need to buy is salt. (Unless you happen to have access to NSW).

 

[fogcutter]

MAP pricing is a joke. I can't think of anything else I'm into where the vendors fix the pricing the way they do in this hobby. Good thing is a little looking around and you can find all sorts of people willing to sell new high end equipment (Ecotech, Neptune, Red Sea, etc.) at decent discounts off MAP. I haven't purchased anything expensive from the like of BRS in quite some time for that reason.

First off...I would LOVE to know where you're getting these decent discounts off MAP. I search almost every day and haven't seen anything close to being a discount on Apex etc..

I've seen this thread before and I agree/somewhat agree with the OP. Just funny to see the "just don't buy it" and "I don't use fancy stuff" responses because they kind of miss the point.

I just set up my 90g reef a few weeks ago and of course I got called away to work out of town during the week. I have a great need for an APEX like system to monitor my tank during the week so I can alert my family to anything that goes wrong with the tank until I can get them educated enough or care enough to help out on their own.
My problem with the high $$ and MAP pricing is that these products (Apex, EcoTech etc..) are being sold at "we're perfect!" prices when clearly they are not. There are so many documented failures with these products that I just can't see how they justify the premium price. Sure your Jebao pump fails...but you only paid pennies for it comparatively.

And it's not just a matter of money...I bought the Photon V2+ rig because I love the way it looks, the way it works and the craftsmanship and I deemed it worthy of my wallet even though I could have built something far cheaper myself. I will GLADLY pay a premium price for quality but these products aren't delivering that....and it doesn't matter how much they spend on R&D or what their profit break points are.

So yes I'll be purchasing an APEX soon...because I need the functionality and after researching it's the product that meets my needs and there's no cheaper or better alternative. I will be first in line when the Arduino and Reef Pi people develop and sophisticate their projects to be as effective as Neptune. I know full well that I'll be spending $800 on a product that works "most" of the time but I'm also going the leverage the social media and industry support that's out there to help program and troubleshoot. And what does it matter if these companies have GREAT customer service and repair policies? Why not have a premium product that's not known for customer service because nobody ever has to use it? That's the company I'll throw my money at....

 

[Randy Ruiz]

I was grousing about the same earlier... frustrated that I spent more on test kits and an algae magnet than in my used tank and stand.. lol. Then I hit "proceed to checkout."

I'll fight the power w u. Diy ats and legacy lights [emoji2]

No way around the controller I can see. In my mind, it is worth it IF they don't come out w a new model every 3 years. If u think about the programming/OS, it's in line w other proprietary software licenses. It does seem excessive that almost every device needs a module though. The trade needs a nice merger or two!

Following this & agree with crazy prices. However, there are less convenient, less glitzy, less expensive ways to do the same things. We have a lot more controllers than ever now & yes it would be nice to combine some of those. However, I often think all-in-one type hardware (like printers), one or more aspect of those often goes out & you end up with a multi-color printer/copier/fax that now won't fax, color cartridges don't work, etc.

 

[gobble]

I know full well that I'll be spending $800 on a product that works "most" of the time but I'm also going the leverage the social media and industry support that's out there to help program and troubleshoot.

The Apex itself works great. It's the other products they came out with after that are crap. Try using a DDR for more then 2 months without the level sensor failing. Try adding food to their feeder without the front cover falling off. Try getting the advertised flow rate from a COR pump. That stuff is all overpriced crap. Most of the reviews are dreadful. The Apex itself is great.

 

[MSB123]

The Apex itself works great. It's the other products they came out with after that are crap. Try using a DOS for more then 2 months without the level sensor failing. Try adding food to their feeder without the front cover falling off. Try getting the advertised flow rate from a COR pump. That stuff is all overpriced crap. Most of the reviews are dreadful. The Apex itself is great.

Never had pro0blems with My COR, at 5ft of head, is steady.
The DOS doesn’t have level sensors.
The AFS is great, I have never had a problem with the cover- o0ther then it being too hard to get off sometimes

 

[gobble]

DDR

 

[gobble]

and normally when you can't pull the AFS cover off it finally comes off and dumps food all over your tank.

On BRS, the Cor-20 is getting 3 stars, the DDR 2 stars, the AFS 3 stars and the ATO 3 stars. The Apex Classic I'm pretty sure was getting 5 stars.

I stopped using my AFS and my DDR is now just a dumb reservoir, the sensors don't work after not even a year.

 

[MSB123]

Why would you need to pull the cover off?

 

[gobble]

Why would you need to pull the cover off?

Um, to add food. Is that a serious question?

 

[gobble]

One of many similar BRS reviews -

Like other reviewers I find the design flawed.
You shouldn't have to pull on the lid to remove the whole food canister to check levels and refill. Any "accidental" lid removal with the canister horizontal will result in the loss of all food into your tank.... I spoke with Neptune directly and they claimed that nobody else had commented on the lid coming off and said I must be pulling too hard.... well I've now had too many lid failures that I cannot risk it wiping my tank.
The pellet measuring is also seriously inconsistent as mentioned by other reviewers, even with the Neptune food.
I've taken mine off the tank after multiple fails.


Let me start with the good. It integrates with my APEX OK? To me anyway, Neptune makes this UI for the feeder complex for no reason. It should just ask me what times I want to feed my fish and how many rotations. That said it's not awful, just not good.

The Bad: Everything else. Since this was not the first autofeeder on the market, I can't believe this sucks soooooo bad. First the price (I won't elaborate, but really $100.) Second trying to configure the amount of food sucks. If you use small food pellets you have to leave it on the lowest setting or all the food dumps in and for larger pellets it is ridiculously inconsistent about how much food comes out. If you use flake food, total crap shoot.
Third, the mount. Again this is not the first feeder on the market, why it's worse then every other feeder is beyond me. Fourth, since the design of the feeding drum is; let's say awful; trying to pull it out refilling, then putting it back ALWAYS results in food spilling. I cannot stress this enough, this is not the first autofeeder on the market, and an issue like this proves they honestly did not care about making a superior product, just making something that was "apex ready". Fifth, the noise. Sure I don't hear it when I'm not home, but it's $99. That's more then the PM1 and PM2, but those IMHO are perfect.

I can't recommend this product unless you really, really need apex integration. It's the lowest quality feeder at the highest price. Don't waste your money like I did, get another autofeeder. And literally everyone is better then this on.

 

[MSB123]

Um, to add food. Is that a serious question?

Yes.
Why would you remove the lid with food in it to add food? It is an easy fix. Wait until it is empty of food and them remove the lid no risk of food going into your tank.

 

[gobble]

It's just not always that simple. I never let my calcium or alk go completely empty before I refill them. What if there's a little food left and I'm going out of town for a week? The only safe way to add food is to remove it from the mount, hold it over a garbage can, then remove the lid. It's just a bad design and I stopped using it. Maybe I expect more because the Apex itself is so good. All their "peripherals" just seem weak compared to their core product.

 

[Mical]

Yeah the Apex ATK is a sore spot. Great concept & idea but their supplier of sensors is typical chinese supplier. First batch are quality, after that quality control is minimal. When they work they're awesome. Overall I like Apex gear but listening to complaints of the additional gear DOS, Cor, etc - I suspect they've rushed these to market without long term testing. JMO