Could water changes become a thing of the past? i.e. tank chemistry

[Nigel35]

I agree with this. I would also like to point out that if you want it to be a method, you are still going to need to work and spend money. If your goal is to be lazy or cheap and do nothing, then that is not a method or the method... your tank will waste away or at least limit you to a subset of only the most forgiving creatures.

The DSR folks WORK HARD. I took a lot of time to study and understand this to see if it was for me. I respect them, their methodologies and all that I learned but It was not for me - too much work and probably more money (money was not a factor at all for me, but I can change 176 gallons of water for less than the cost of a single ICP test).

I don't like being "cheap'' I like to be effective. One could spend hundreds of dollars on Red Sea's trace elements just to get a name brand. I have an old liter jug full of liquidized iron and dose when I need to. I spend 18 cents every six months, other guys spend 30 bucks a package. Different price same results.

 

[chaoticreefer]

I would like to clarify something, I am certainly not saying WCs don't have their benefits, that would be idiotic to say. It is just in my opinion they are a very inefficient way to replace what's much needed (trace elements, etc). In fact, adding a mixture of trace elements blindly is a very inefficient way too. WCs can even decrease your appropriate parameters, costing you having to dose even more certain types of elements, depending on your own system. WCs absolutely removes the bad stuff, but it doesn't discriminate either. Do I see myself doing WCs in the future? Oh absolutely, but it won't be on a regular bases. Jda is absolutely right...if your goal is to be lazy and relax, this not a method for you. WCs takes much less time and effort in a sense. You have to be devoted to it daily...usually just 2-3 mins per day, monthly doses do take little more time. If you are doing it to save money...that's a hard question to answer. You save on salt, RODI filters, and a lot less sudden coral deaths. But the cost of the method does add up if you compare it just to the cost of salt. So...you should only try this method only if your goal is to see better colors and healthier corals.

 

[Nigel35]

I would like to clarify something, I am certainly not saying WCs don't have their benefits, that would be idiotic to say. It is just in my opinion they are a very inefficient way to replace what's much needed (trace elements, etc). In fact, adding a mixture of trace elements blindly is a very inefficient way too. WCs can even decrease your appropriate parameters, costing you having to dose even more certain types of elements, depending on your own system. WCs absolutely removes the bad stuff, but it doesn't discriminate either. Do I see myself doing WCs in the future? Oh absolutely, but it won't be on a regular bases. Jda is absolutely right...if your goal is to be lazy and relax, this not a method for you. WCs takes much less time and effort in a sense. You have to be devoted to it daily...usually just 2-3 mins per day, monthly doses do take little more time. If you are doing it to save money...that's a hard question to answer. You save on salt, RODI filters, and a lot less sudden coral deaths. But the cost of the method does add up if you compare it just to the cost of salt. So...you should only try this method only if your goal is to see better colors and healthier corals.

Amen...

 

[damsels are not mean]

Removing a healthy culture of microorganisms

What microorganisms? Do regular 10-20% water changes really remove an appreciable amount of these supposed microorganisms? Does it really take them long to replenish? Do they even matter?

addition of silicates.

Maybe, but again do small and regular water changes do that to a detrimental degree? Some people dose those to encourage growth of some organisms such as sponges. I noticed a small diatom bloom on part of my sand the day after I did a really big 50%+ WC but they were gone overnight. If that's the cost of a blanket solution to lots of problems I'll take it!

They do serve a purpose but that "purpose'' can be achieved through dosing.

I agree. Many ways to skin a reef. I think if I had a really big tank WC would be a pain and I would prefer dosing.

But if I were setting up a nano or helping a newbie who is on a budget? Small WC are a lot cheaper and beginner friendly than buying a bunch of additivies and sending in water for testing. I also would argue that in a tiny, low tech, and not overstocked tank you can skip a lot of testing if you can do frequent and regular WC.

 

[Nigel35]

What microorganisms? Do regular 10-20% water changes really remove an appreciable amount of these supposed microorganisms? Does it really take them long to replenish? Do they even matter?



Maybe, but again do small and regular water changes do that to a detrimental degree? Some people dose those to encourage growth of some organisms such as sponges. I noticed a small diatom bloom on part of my sand the day after I did a really big 50%+ WC but they were gone overnight. If that's the cost of a blanket solution to lots of problems I'll take it!


I agree. Many ways to skin a reef. I think if I had a really big tank WC would be a pain and I would prefer dosing.

But if I were setting up a nano or helping a newbie who is on a budget? Small WC are a lot cheaper and beginner friendly than buying a bunch of additivies and sending in water for testing. I also would argue that in a tiny, low tech, and not overstocked tank you can skip a lot of testing if you can do frequent and regular WC.

Its a quick fix that causes issues down the road. Large water changes like the one you just mentioned cause system imbalances. They cause invasions of certain bacteria and microorganisms. If you have a functional system why muck with it? When you do a huge water change or even remove to much water in the space of a month it gives undesired organisms a foothold. Let me tell you that is all they need to start a chain reaction of issues.

I think your implying that this way is the only way... its not. It is one of many ways to get results. Don't criticize it just because it is foreign... its proven to work well in many instances, take it for what its worth.

Tank chemistry is critical to success. Your method of just throwing a water change at it is what I have been quite critical of. testing is absolutely essential. I'm not talking about sending ICP's every week, but basic and foundational chemistry. Without it you'll find yourself in a field of landmines.

 

[Ocean’s Piece]

Made a video and a thread about this a while back that blew up. In that video, I’ll show you what I do.
Definitely the most controversial thread I have ever made:

Do you do water changes?

I recently stopped doing water changes. Let’s be honest, water changes are a big hassle, especially if you’re doing it weekly. As a reefer, I’m always looking for new, better, and more efficient ways to achieve my goals. I found that dosing is the best method for me to go about nutrient import...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[Nigel35]

could have saved the trouble... Thanks oceans piece!

 

[damsels are not mean]

Its a quick fix that causes issues down the road. Large water changes like the one you just mentioned cause system imbalances. They cause invasions of certain bacteria and microorganisms. If you have a functional system why muck with it? When you do a huge water change or even remove to much water in the space of a month it gives undesired organisms a foothold. Let me tell you that is all they need to start a chain reaction of issues.

I think your implying that this way is the only way... its not. It is one of many ways to get results. Don't criticize it just because it is foreign... its proven to work well in many instances, take it for what its worth.

Tank chemistry is critical to success. Your method of just throwing a water change at it is what I have been quite critical of. testing is absolutely essential. I'm not talking about sending ICP's every week, but basic and foundational chemistry. Without it you'll find yourself in a field of landmines.

I don't disagree that no WC systems work. I did no WC for a while on one of my tanks and it was fine. No SPS though to be fair. I just think WC is easier and cheaper on a small system.

I'm really just skeptical of this microbiome talk when we don't really know how it works or what's in our tanks. I need to see evidence that there's a careful balance that is somehow maintained by whatever lives in the water. I just don't buy it. If this were the case, systems running skimmers and UV sterilizers would not be healthy, yet they are. What are these mystery organisms that are supposedly critical to a healthy system?

I will stand by my statement that water testing isn't absolutely critical if you do frequent and large water changes, especially if you don't want to keep SPS. Sure it can help you diagnose things, make things grow better and stay healthy, but if you're growing zoas and softies and minimal LPS? You don't need to test much more than temp and salinity to have a healthy system if you keep up WC.

 

[Amhojjat]

In reef tanks specifically, I have made some observations related water changes. Firstly, I would think that we can all agree that with proper parameter maintenance our tanks can thrive. Some of the ways people achieve this is by dosing, water changes, skimming, media reactors, UV lighting, etc.

Secondly whenever we come upon an issue almost 99% of the time has to do with parameters. While coral structure health can be easily solved by dosing, lighting, proper flow etc. Every niche issue generally goes back to nutrients, be it bubble, film, hair algae, cyano, diatoms and even dinos. They are tied into either a nitrate, phosphate or silicate problem. Its key to understand why those issues come about and how to solve them. Often I hear reefers throwing a water change at any problem they face, especially when it comes to nutrients. I have come to the conclusion that water changes can often (not always) create more of a problem than already exists. Say you have A diatom or Dino outbreak, performing water changes adds silicates to the water column and thereby promotes their growth. While water changes may be a "quick fix" to create a cleaner system I believe that they may cause more issues.

So we go to solutions. How can we solve issues like thes. My simple answer is once again tank chemistry. Lets say you have higher nitrates, skip the water change and dose iron. Iron has been proven to accelerate the growth of corals. What happens when corals are growing faster than normal? They consume more nutrients... Faster. So now your nitrate issue is out the door. Have phosphate issues? Dose carbon or other credible phosphate removers. Parameters in check, no water changes

While Bob from Montana might have a lot about reefing right, this method of parameter management has been incredibly effective. I don't recommend this way for everyone... its difficult but incredibly rewarding as life tends to teach us.

I would appreciate your thoughts.

Nigel

I was thinking the same thing. Just set up a new reef tank 1 month ago. I’ve only did 1 10 gallon water change in my 80 gallon.

been dosing with aqua forest 123 3 to 4 times per day. My chem levels are all Awsome. Coralline is growing and corals are growing with beautiful colors.

even my elegance is doing amaizing!

 

[ClownSchool]

I use Kent marine essential elements for trace

Is that in addition to alkaline and calcium two-part?

 

[MichaelReefer]

Haven't done a water change in over 18 months. Wont ever go back.

 

[dvgyfresh]

Is that in addition to alkaline and calcium two-part?

You are correct , I add kalk to top off water or use two part. I also have a mg supplement to keep my mg 1200-1400 range

 

[Tony Thompson]

I think that we could all agree, both methods have been proven to produce healthy reef tanks over a extended period of time.

I am not sure there is a prudent method that would discount water changes altogether (like never).

The idea as far as I am concerned is water changes are just another tool in the reefers armoury. Although IMO not necessarily ones that rely on a strict regime of changing, what some may regard as an arbitrary percentage of water.

Even with a method such as Triton, it may be advisable to carry out a water change at some point, as a quick and holistic method of achieving a particular goal.

I prefer the triton method, or at least one based on the basic principles. I don't try to achieve a static balance of every chemical in seawater. Also I don't place blind faith in ICP OES testing, especially with micro elements.

As @Randy Holmes-Farley quite elegantly and succinctly stated " There's more to seawater chemistry than can be solved by ICP and dosing and nutrient control." However thankfully for me, there is more to reef tanks than just chemistry.

 

[bruno3047]

In reef tanks specifically, I have made some observations related water changes. Firstly, I would think that we can all agree that with proper parameter maintenance our tanks can thrive. Some of the ways people achieve this is by dosing, water changes, skimming, media reactors, UV lighting, etc.

Secondly whenever we come upon an issue almost 99% of the time has to do with parameters. While coral structure health can be easily solved by dosing, lighting, proper flow etc. Every niche issue generally goes back to nutrients, be it bubble, film, hair algae, cyano, diatoms and even dinos. They are tied into either a nitrate, phosphate or silicate problem. Its key to understand why those issues come about and how to solve them. Often I hear reefers throwing a water change at any problem they face, especially when it comes to nutrients. I have come to the conclusion that water changes can often (not always) create more of a problem than already exists. Say you have A diatom or Dino outbreak, performing water changes adds silicates to the water column and thereby promotes their growth. While water changes may be a "quick fix" to create a cleaner system I believe that they may cause more issues.

So we go to solutions. How can we solve issues like thes. My simple answer is once again tank chemistry. Lets say you have higher nitrates, skip the water change and dose iron. Iron has been proven to accelerate the growth of corals. What happens when corals are growing faster than normal? They consume more nutrients... Faster. So now your nitrate issue is out the door. Have phosphate issues? Dose carbon or other credible phosphate removers. Parameters in check, no water changes

While Bob from Montana might have a lot about reefing right, this method of parameter management has been incredibly effective. I don't recommend this way for everyone... its difficult but incredibly rewarding as life tends to teach us.

I would appreciate your thoughts.

Nigel

I no longer do water changes, per se, where you just remove water from the water column and replace it with new water. I now do a complete gravel vacuum twice a year which removes about 30 to 35% of the dirtiest water in my tank, which is the water in my gravel, and replace with new water. This allows me to keep my water in pristine condition and all my corals healthy and happy. I dose Essential Elements from Kent Marine according to the directions to maintain my trace element levels. Of course, I also dose calcium, alkalinity and magnesium using a Jebao doser.

 

[Koigula]

In past I have found green rocks to be a sign of low calcium as a tank matures. Here is my old tank with Ushio 10ks and aged reef saver rock. It stayed a bit green and then purple after I rescaped and took out all the encrusted rocks.

T5s and kalk and auto top off, and I listened to Bob Stark. Only added things that calcifying organism take out and maybe ESV transitional elements. Very basic. More stuff and equipment means more failures.

More modern tank is going back to this that just worked! I do water changes with a danner mag 18 tied into the house drain in basement so takes 10 minutes.

 

[happyhourhero]

I do 40% wc whenever I feel like it and have now issues.

 

[Koigula]

 

[Scorpius]

Beat that dead horse over and over and over again.

 

[J1a]

Water change is a tool, just like every other tools we have for reefing. Just like every other tool in reefing, the quality and the correct application of the tool is the key.

Water change with sub-par water, wrong mix, etc would likely cause more harm than good; just like how a mis-tuned calcium reactor can cause system fluctuations.


At the end of the day, choosing the correct tool and use it correctly is most important.

 

[Koigula]

If you cant trust your RODI and your salt water mix you are kinda screwed in this hobby. No amount of gadetry will fix this.