Curious why so many people recommend h202

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Jekyl

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FWIW, folks should recognize that hydrogen peroxide can do more than just decompose into O2 and H2O. Specifically, it can alter the forms of trace elements present.

Apparently, for example, hydrogen peroxide can reduce cupric ion (Cu++, the normal form in seawater) to cuprous ion (Cu+) and can oxidize ferrous ion (Fe++) to ferric ion (Fe+++).
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hart24601

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I have been using peroxide to spot treat algae since at least 2013 in my tanks when needed. I started for bryopisis and another macro that seemed to put down "roots" into the rock and was impossible for me to eliminate. Spot treating, turning off pumps and putting a few ml with a syringe on the spots eventually did the trick, as it has ever since if I have an issue with algae. Clumps that grazers previously ignore they eat after treatment, I don't know if that is because the algae is damaged and easier for them to consume or what exactly. Often times the treated spots just turn white and die off. It has been a valuable tool in my reefing tool box for a long time now and really works great if one understands the limitations and is careful, but I have found it to be pretty forgiving personally. With my systems mature now I don't really need it for algae control right now, but if for whatever reason I was to see a clump of hair algae in the DT, which again is rare now, I would have no hesitation on spot treating it with a few ml and in a couple days it would be gone.

Of all the various items in the "reefers toolbox" few if any items have such a dramatic and immediate impact, it's very easy to see the results as it bubbles away on the algae and you see the spot turn white overnight. I can't speak to any other uses, nor would I want to use a great deal in a tank, if algae is that bad I would remove the rock and treat outside tank and rinse off, but it works amazingly well and has been well tolerated in my systems which contain shrimp, clams, mostly acros and some LPS.

That is why I recommend peroxide.
 

Lasse

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Most, if not all Hydrogen Peroxide found at the store contains stabilizers, tin is commonly used as a stabilizer but there are others as well. I have no idea what the concentrations are, read about h2o2 stabilizers if you'd like to know more about the commonly used ones. If one was able to find a diluted h2o2 solution without any stabilizers, that would not contain tin.
If you do not know the concentrations of tin in the stabilizer (and how common it is) - why do you warn people for it ?

I know the answers and i also know the normal concentrations and also that tin is one of many different stabilizers but not in use for example in EKA HP-T (technical grade) However in their Food grade product EKA HP-F there is a low tin stabilizer incorporated.

and almost (if not all) hydrogen peroxides found on the shelves are stabilized.
Any prove of that statement? And if it is stabilized with Sodium citrate ? Do you know which are stabilized with tin? You just state that most are. But EKA HP-T is a very common used hydrogen peroxide - and it is not stabilized with tin.

Correct as above. We only ever recommend food grade. I was editing my post to ensure the wrong alarmist information is nipped in the bud. Food grade is what is always recommended with any chemical, if its available, we might add to.our tanks.
there is a lot of Food Grade 35 % without stabilizer on the market - especially in the US

Myself - I am only buying Söchtings own 12 % solution. It is tested since around 1980 in many aquariums. I use 2 dl 12% every 14 days in my aquarium (Oxydator A) - Have done that for nearly 5 years now. I think that my 20 ICP test during this time talk by itself about the danger with hydrogen peroxide and tin ..... Not any regular or large WC since summer 2018. The two peaks fit in with two WC.

1627412263323.png

Apparently, for example, hydrogen peroxide can reduce cupric ion (Cu++, the normal form in seawater) to cuprous ion (Cu+) and can oxidize ferrous ion (Fe++) to ferric ion (Fe+++).
The Fe works as an catalyst for the breakdown of H2O2 too. I am dosing Fe on a regular base. Triton always report 0 in Fe. By the way - do you know which oxidation state marine algae prefer?

Sincerely Lasse
 

Lasse

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By the way - the aquarium looks like this


And here you can see its killing activity on bacteria.........


Sincerely Lasse
 
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Randy Holmes-Farley

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The Fe works as an catalyst for the breakdown of H2O2 too. I am dosing Fe on a regular base. Triton always report 0 in Fe. By the way - do you know which oxidation state marine algae prefer?

There's no apparently clear answer at the moment:


Due to the greater solubility of Fe(II) compared to Fe(III), the occurrence of reductive processes and/or measurable Fe(II) concentrations is often equated with increased bioavailability. Accumulating evidence suggests that Fe(II) in seawater is organically bound may alter this view, as it is unclear to what degree Fe(II)L is accessible to phytoplankton. Moreover, iron availability does not necessarily increase following its reduction. Factors such as the characteristics of the Fe species undergoing reduction, the reductive pathway, the presence of other ligands and oxidants in the immediate surroundings, and ultimately the uptake machinery of the phytoplankton utilizing this iron, should be considered when evaluating the effect of reductive processes on iron availability.
 
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If you do not know the concentrations of tin in the stabilizer (and how common it is) - why do you warn people for it ?

I know the answers and i also know the normal concentrations and also that tin is one of many different stabilizers but not in use for example in EKA HP-T (technical grade) However in their Food grade product EKA HP-F there is a low tin stabilizer incorporated.


Any prove of that statement? And if it is stabilized with Sodium citrate ? Do you know which are stabilized with tin? You just state that most are. But EKA HP-T is a very common used hydrogen peroxide - and it is not stabilized with tin.


there is a lot of Food Grade 35 % without stabilizer on the market - especially in the US

Myself - I am only buying Söchtings own 12 % solution. It is tested since around 1980 in many aquariums. I use 2 dl 12% every 14 days in my aquarium (Oxydator A) - Have done that for nearly 5 years now. I think that my 20 ICP test during this time talk by itself about the danger with hydrogen peroxide and tin ..... Not any regular or large WC since summer 2018. The two peaks fit in with two WC.

1627412263323.png


The Fe works as an catalyst for the breakdown of H2O2 too. I am dosing Fe on a regular base. Triton always report 0 in Fe. By the way - do you know which oxidation state marine algae prefer?

Sincerely Lasse
I figured its worth people knowing that it is used as a stabilizer in some cases, regardless of knowing the exact concentrations.
I have only ever seen stabilized h2o2 for sale at stores around here, but I don't use h2o2 in the tanks, so I suppose it's possible that it can be found locally. I find it somewhat unlikely when people recommend dumping generic h2o2 from walmart into an aquarium. Many threads I see mention none of this, and very rarely do I notice specific hydrogen peroxides being mentioned (such as the one you mentioned, as well as the indicated EKA HP-T stabilizer).
This thread wasn't directed toward people using an oxydator, more so toward people dumping it into their tank (and people recommending this) as some magical cure for dinos.
That is a good looking tank in your next post by the way.
 

brandon429

why did you put a reef in that
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hey neat thread


someone post for me equally long work proofs of this number of logged tank turnarounds below, not using peroxide :)


now we see the benefit. but prior assessments, where nobody is expected to produce results for others, made it look like a fad

its neat how accountability changes perspective:

1. https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/reef2reef-pest-algae-challenge-thread-hydrogen-peroxide.187042/


2. https://www.nano-reef.com/forums/topic/268706-peroxide-saves-my-tank-with-pics-to-prove-it/page/62/


3. http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2082359



4. https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/dinoflagellates-my-experience-h2o2-reefing-tool.52084/


what is that, like 300 pages of work?
how many aquarists were happy v sad

did tin matter above?
 
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brandon429

why did you put a reef in that
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I can guarantee these notes from the field:

no practical application/use of peroxide harms the biofilter. Any study/recent published article that says otherwise wasn't testing inside a slicked up biofilm reef tank, they were extrapolating cold glass slide tests up to a reef tank which doesnt work.


Specifically on seneye tests we've (Jon M, dang good job man) seen a BOOST in oxidation rates vs a drop. paradox galore, just like what h202 does with orp. Is it all that surprising that after dilution into a big reef tank, aerobes enjoy a bit of an oxygen boost?

Peroxide use does not harm a biofilter, heck we can see that patterning off the mere 300 pages/12 years of straight work above. Rumor/smashed.

for sure peroxide overdoses have killed reefs, so has kalk overdoses or topoff water sticks that drain twenty gallons ro di into the tank.


any discerning reader can also see this pattern: res publica wants zero work for all forms of invasion remediation, so they dump peroxide in a tank's water and wait/hope


and even that kills gha a majority of the time.

try and find that being done in the work above though examples 1-3, water dosing.

heck no, we do tank surgery cleaning and peroxide is the least of the tools we're using, but critical. Troylee's tank-dosing 4th example above was to combat dinos, and look at the results pattern. Very statistically significant.




Peroxide is the single best tool in reefing nonstandard, above all, if you know how to move it like a rook chess piece. getting shown peroxide use by ReefMiser in 2011 in post #2 for the first time was the single most reef life changing event I've ever been shown, to date. I guarantee you above three million bucks of reef tanks were saved/prevented from willing take down at least at the time we produced the after pics for the final outcome.

*reefing is cyclic, we add in protein and store up waste and shine bright lights, algae comes back sometimes just like dandelions grow repeatedly in gardens even after initial removal. sometimes when folks get growback (on their recently cycled dry white rocks/surprising right) its not that the tool failed, its that they want the benefits of all-coralline true live rock without any repeat work for having started the reef in the ideal condition for plant growth over corals

Res publica will always default to the least work condition, not what is logged to work the best. you have to sell them into choosing the right manner of recourse, and that part is fun.


dont form opinions about peroxide from that perspective of tried it once, do some jobs with it first that are not in your reef tank and don't just dump it in the tank for once.
 
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brandon429

why did you put a reef in that
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oxydators are safe and very consistent, they're really good at helping some problem tanks. fw shrimp breeders sure like them too.
 

Cell

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I dont dose, but love to use it as a dip. Recently saved an octospawn with a couple H2O2 dips and routinely use it on zoas. Just the cheap bottles from Menards. No clue if it has tin or not.
 

Dan_P

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I see many recommendations that people add hydrogen peroxide to their tank for various issues. It usually seems this does nothing for them. Why are people doing this? I would never put this in my tanks. Most h202 contains tin
Many people claim to have seen Bigfoot or to being abducted by space aliens too.
 

Lasse

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Many people claim to have seen Bigfoot or to being abducted by space aliens too.
And people that still think that the earth is flat - because we have not enough of data :D

Sincerely Lasse
 
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brandon429

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that's a great example of today's full-tank control vs yesterday's dose and wait and hope and take a back seat for three months while corals bleach out.


see how tank surgery, mass export was what fixed the system? peroxide was used as a small tool, in his case as glass cleaning directly on surfaces which works well, we didnt even have to zap his system to prevent further eutrophication in the system, just a big export run


*am aware not everyone fixes tanks like that, they have preferred ways. The difference in methods is every link I present is someone else's before and after, and most peroxide doubters only work on their own tanks they dont take on outbound jobs to log using alternate means. another solid rip clean, 8% of the overall job was peroxide but it still helped.


the oligotrophic condition was instated, by force not by coaxing there. we will produce hundreds more of those logged results this year alone.
 

hart24601

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Growing up in the 80's pouring H2O2 on kids wounds was pretty common. It's not really done anymore presumably because chemical burns hurt and soap works fine.
Dang we still use peroxide on our scrapes, I can’t say last time I used it that it hurt or left a chemical burn tho….
 

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I remember, not all that long ago (8-10 years), a lot of the so-called people in the know stated that tank cycling aids (Dr. Tim's, Bio-Spira, etc.) were all snake oil also...

They were wrong then... and quite possibly wrong now saying the same about hydrogen peroxide.

If you want to get an answer from someone who is actually using it and testing its efficacy - ask Humblefish.
 
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