Cyano, Chemiclean, and Carbon Dosing Question

[clm65]

A little background...had a FOWLR tank for about 19 years. Late last year I decided to try moving to a mixed reef tank, but testing revealed that I had high nitrates and phosphates. Like >400 NO3 and >2 PO4. I eventually started dosing NOPOX, increased water changes, improved cleaning, etc. I transitioned from NOPOX to vinegar for carbon dosing due to nasty bacterial blooms. Currently my NO3 is around 25 and my PO4 is around 0.5, so things seem to be improving as far as water quality goes.

When my nutrients were sky high, I didn't really have any major issues with nuisance algae. Maybe my numbers were too high for algae. IDK. Anyway, now that my numbers are coming down, I seem to have found the threshold that cyano likes. I've been doing the vacuuming, brushing, and turkey baster thing to try to get rid of it. I also changed out my powerheads a couple of weeks ago in hopes that increasing flow would eliminate it. No help so far. In fact, now I'm starting to see cyano in places that previously did not have any. And it seems to like growing on my zoa frags and causing them to close up. So I am contemplating using Chemiclean. I know efficient skimming is important while carbon dosing, but from what I understand you stop skimming (or at least remove the cup) for a couple of days when using Chemiclean. So my question is, should I continue dosing vinegar while (if) I treat the tank with Chemiclean? Or should I suspend carbon dosing until the skimmer starts functioning properly after treatment? Is there a reason not to use Chemiclean since I have been carbon dosing for a few months or so?

 

[saltyhog]

You could just remove your skimmer cup until skimmer function returns to normal. You won't be doing much to further reduce NO3 but there's no hurry there. I would check to see if what you really have is cyano or spirulina. Chemiclean, as I understand it actually doesn't work with real cyano, just spirulina (a type of cyano that looks identical). Peroxide is very effective against cyano.

I would try to avoid chemical treatments if possible. What you're having is a phase that a lot of folks get when carbon dosing (especially Etoh/vinegar combo).

 

[clm65]

You could just remove your skimmer cup until skimmer function returns to normal. You won't be doing much to further reduce NO3 but there's no hurry there. I would check to see if what you really have is cyano or spirulina. Chemiclean, as I understand it actually doesn't work with real cyano, just spirulina (a type of cyano that looks identical). Peroxide is very effective against cyano.

I would try to avoid chemical treatments if possible. What you're having is a phase that a lot of folks get when carbon dosing (especially Etoh/vinegar combo).

Thanks. I bought the Chemiclean, but I haven't decided if I'm going to use it or not. I would prefer to wait it out, if it is just a short-term phase, but I'm worried about it choking out my zoas before the phase is over. How do I tell if it is cyano or spirulina?

 

[saltyhog]

If you have access to a microscope you could post a picture of it under the scope. If not, you can put a piece of the cyano mat in a cup of tank water (clear container) and put 3-4 cc of H2O2 in it and let it set for a few hours. If it's cyano it will turn green, clump up and the water will turn pink. If it's spirulina, not much will happen...it will be largely unaffected.

 

[clm65]

If you have access to a microscope you could post a picture of it under the scope. If not, you can put a piece of the cyano mat in a cup of tank water (clear container) and put 3-4 cc of H2O2 in it and let it set for a few hours. If it's cyano it will turn green, clump up and the water will turn pink. If it's spirulina, not much will happen...it will be largely unaffected.

Thank you! I have an old fashion microscope (no video out), so I am going using the cup method.

 

[saltyhog]

Thank you! I have an old fashion microscope (no video out), so I am going using the cup method.

Just use your cell phone and take a picture through the eye piece. Not hard at all. Post it here!

 

[saltyhog]

This is what plain cyano looks like.

 

[clm65]

Just use your cell phone and take a picture through the eye piece. Not hard at all. Post it here!

I’ll give that a try tomorrow! Thanks!

 

[clm65]

Ok, having trouble finding the slides for the microscope. But the cup of water with some pieces of cyano and some H2O2 is very pink this morning. I let it sit for a lot more than a few hours (yes, I forgot about it). Is that still a valid test?

 

[saltyhog]

I would think so. If it is then Chemiclean will not help your particular problem anyway. Twillard has a thread on dosing H2O2 for cyano.

 

[clm65]

I would think so. If it is then Chemiclean will not help your particular problem anyway. Twillard has a thread on dosing H2O2 for cyano.

Thank you. Haven't found twillard's thread yet, but found a lot of others on the subject. Every possible treatment seems to have a fair share of proponents and opponents. To be honest, I am nervous adding something new to the tank. I think I may wait this thing out a little while longer. We have a 22 year old tang and my wife would kill me if something happened to it due to my impatience.

 

[saltyhog]

Thank you. Haven't found twillard's thread yet, but found a lot of others on the subject. Every possible treatment seems to have a fair share of proponents and opponents. To be honest, I am nervous adding something new to the tank. I think I may wait this thing out a little while longer. We have a 22 year old tang and my wife would kill me if something happened to it due to my impatience.

I think that's wise but I don't think fish would be much at risk from using it.

Here's a link to Twilliard's thread. The dose he recommends is 1 ml/ gallon of total water volume twice a day.

 

[clm65]

I think that's wise but I don't think fish would be much at risk from using it.

Here's a link to Twilliard's thread. The dose he recommends is 1 ml/ gallon of total water volume twice a day.

I think you forgot the link, but that's ok, you sent me on the right path to find it! Great thread and makes me more comfortable with dosing H2O2. I've got a vacation coming up in a few weeks, so I will definitely wait until after that. If the cyano is still present when I get back, I will give it a shot. Thank you so much for your help!

 

[saltyhog]

I think you forgot the link, but that's ok, you sent me on the right path to find it! Great thread and makes me more comfortable with dosing H2O2. I've got a vacation coming up in a few weeks, so I will definitely wait until after that. If the cyano is still present when I get back, I will give it a shot. Thank you so much for your help!

Dang! I thought I had put it in the post! Here you go!

Back at it! Peroxide vrs cyanobacteria

Wow that's beautiful.

www.reef2reef.com

 

[clm65]

Thank you again!

 

[taricha]

But the cup of water with some pieces of cyano and some H2O2 is very pink this morning. I let it sit for a lot more than a few hours (yes, I forgot about it). Is that still a valid test?

yep! it tells you it is a cyano with lots of phycoerythrin (water-soluble pink pigment).

When my nutrients were sky high, I didn't really have any major issues with nuisance algae. Maybe my numbers were too high for algae. IDK. Anyway, now that my numbers are coming down, I seem to have found the threshold that cyano likes.

fascinating. Did you/do you have a sandbed? did you also change lights and kind of salt mix in preparation for coral. Or just bringing nutrients down through carbon dosing?

 

[clm65]

fascinating. Did you/do you have a sandbed? did you also change lights and kind of salt mix in preparation for coral. Or just bringing nutrients down through carbon dosing?

Yes, have a sand bed. Hadn’t vacuumed it in many many years. The amount of nastiness I got out of the sand is amazing. This is one example. There were multiple like this over a couple months.

I also changed my lights last year (3 cheap Mars Aqua black boxes). I also have some DIY led bars. Changed out the skimmer last year too. Went from IO to Fritz RPM salt this year. Also changed from annual (if that) water changes to weekly or bi-weekly. After years of minimal maintenance, the nitrates and phosphates really built up. Surprisingly no bad algae outbreaks during that time. Now that I’m trying to get the tank corrected, and testing confirms I am making progress, I start getting some uglies. Go figure.

 

[taricha]

So a few tweaks but nothing drastic except nutrients and water changes.
What kind of sand do you have? Crushed coral / aragonite sand?

 

[clm65]

So a few tweaks but nothing drastic except nutrients and water changes.
What kind of sand do you have? Crushed coral / aragonite sand?

regular sand - aragonite I believe.

 

[taricha]

regular sand - aragonite I believe.

K. you will likely find that the aragonite holds and releases lots of phosphate even after your water P level is way down.
It will slowly come to equilibrium, but there's a lot of bound phosphate between here and there.