Cyano going to cause me to shut down my tank

GoVols · Dec 20, 2017

Once I was able to keep phosphates and nitrates in balance and stable, without the need to carbon dose, I have not had a new cyano out break in a year and a half.

Needless to say... I loathe ;Sour carbon dosing and it just was not for me

Regards, GoVols

fishbox · Dec 22, 2017

I've been battling cyano now for about 3 months. It is 100% my fault due to neglect on my tank. I started the tank off with dry rock from BRS and have been battling algae ever since but I don't think that's the problem. The tank is a 40-gallon breeder. I've been running the tank without a skimmer or sump or any other nutrient export methods except for water changes. And when I did those water changes I wasn't vacuuming the sand bed. My water parameters got out of control. My phosphates were too high to register on my ULR Hannah checker. And my nitrates are too high to read on my Red Sea nitrate test. Last week I installed a sump and skimmer and I started deep cleaning my sand with a vac. In the next week or two I'll be installing a cheato reactor. So hopefully that will get my water parameters back in line and help with the Red slime. I really don't want to remove my sand bed but will do so as a last resort. I currently feed twice a day. I want to cut back to once a day but I'm afraid to do so because of my copperband butterfly as I know that they are constant eaters. I also have a 3 Watt UV sterilizer that I know is under-sized for my tank but I could install it if you guys think it would help.

Potatohead · Dec 26, 2017

So now about day eleven or twelve of refugium. Chaeto still about same size, but still a dark green. Hair algae in the tank is really dying back a lot, and what remains has cyano on it so I think it's pretty much all dead or dying. Cyano is still pretty prevalent and probably more than a week ago, but still very thin and stringy. I think the algae die off is feeding it and hoping once it's all gone the cyano will also start to die off. Reduced my carbon dose about 20% ever few days and as of yesterday am at zero. GFO reactor still running but I'm letting it clog up and slow the flow, I probably won't touch it until (if) phosphate start to climb up too high.

So, still in wait and see mode but I'm seeing some slow progress. A couple of my acros are not happy but mostly everything seems ok.

Joe Rice · Dec 26, 2017

Potatohead said:
So now about day eleven or twelve of refugium. Chaeto still about same size, but still a dark green. Hair algae in the tank is really dying back a lot, and what remains has cyano on it so I think it's pretty much all dead or dying.

Sounds like good progress! Might help the chaeto if you can manually remove as much of the hair algae and cyano as is reasonably easy to get. And then maybe hit the display tank with a 3-day blackout - keeping the fuge light on its normal schedule. My current theory is that the various algae in a system compete with each other and reducing one species helps the others. So I'm enlisting you to help me prove my theory

saltyfilmfolks · Dec 26, 2017

For the hair alge.

MrineLfRlz · Dec 27, 2017

Ive also been battling cyano for over 6 months i clean out the DT and days later its back. I run uv, change out filter socks every week but not over 2 weeks, auto water change and keep my di changed out periodically to keep at zero i also implemented a ATS about a year ago diy yes but it grows algae on it and still have cyano. I did get rid of my DSB in my refugium and some rock when i started the ATS i should of at least keep the rock in there but i didnt i was worried about them being a nutrient sink. Im getting the refugium started again with chaeto with no rock still. I will keep my ATS going and see how things change, im also getting a better clean up crew with cerith and trochus snails instead of the turbos.

Potatohead · Dec 27, 2017

Zirco said:
My current theory is that the various algae in a system compete with each other and reducing one species helps the others. So I'm enlisting you to help me prove my theory

That is my theory as well. I am planning on removing more cyano again manually, but I am really getting low on sand. I should probably just remove it all and do a huge rinse like in the sand rinse thread. I may do that but want to give it a couple more weeks to see if it will correct on its own without any carbon dosing. On a related note, even without any carbon my nitrate is staying in the 1-2 range.

Potatohead · Dec 31, 2017

Ok guys I need some opinions on where to go from here.

In the last four or five days there has not been much change. Some hair algae is still there, a lot of it does seem to be dying, but at a reduced rate from a couple weeks ago. Brushing most of what remains does not remove it from the rocks. The chaeto ball seems to have grown maybe a small amount, like 10-15%. It is still pretty dark green. A couple spots are growing some really light cyano. The cyano in the tank slowly gets worse as days go on.

In the last week to ten days I raised my magnesium from 1280-1300 to 1360. I also swapped out my gfo because phosphate was getting higher than usual and I was worried it would fuel HA again. Really low flow thru it. Since then the HA has continued to die at a slow rate, but cyano is getting worse. I'm not sure if dying HA is fueling cyano or if lowering phosphate is messing up N&P balance and fueling cyano. I have been running my alk at 8 but since I am not carbon dosing anymore I have been thinking of going up to 9, I have no idea if that that will help.

So I don't know where to go from here. I gave the tank a big cleaning today, removed as much as I could, really stirred up the sand, and did a 12% water change. My sand is now really thin.

I got really frustrated and ripped out a couple corals that were on death's door. I almost ripped out my gfo reactor and was just going to let the tank do what it wants but as stated I don't know if that will help. I'm starting to think I have a crazy bacteria strain or something and that it may not be a N&P balance issue because this is just insane. I have literally been dealing with this for a year now. I'm really close to taking all my rock and sand out and letting it cure in darkness for a few months and just leave my fish in the tank with the corals and some egg crate.

saltyfilmfolks · Dec 31, 2017

I think it’ll take a month or more.
Tanks go slow.

You could take it apart and put it back together.

I’ve done that. About to do it again.

Servillius · Dec 31, 2017

Okay, deep breath. I think everyone could use a little focus. Having read through the thread, I’d have no clue who to listen to. I’m going to try to paraphrase what I believe is the long term advice that most established reefers will agree works.

The good news is you’re doing the right thing.

The bad news is it’s gonna take some patience.

When it comes to nutrients, almost everything I. Your tank is a sponge. You’ve spent 20 months putting in more nutrients than you take out. How do I know? Because you’ve got nasty algae. It’s okay, we all do it or have done it a dozen times. The problem is it’s not really what you put in that matters. Even a little is too much. It’s how much you take out. If you get the taking out right, everything else falls in line.

The problem you have is all your rock, all your sand, and all your just about everything else is currently rich with organics and forming a lovely algae buffet. When you kill one algae another will show up because the food is there.

In order for things to start coming right, you have to export all the nutrients you add in a day plus all the nutrients that leech back out of your rock and still have reserve capacity left over. Now I use Zeovit which is a carbon dosing system. It works great. You can accomplish this without carbon however and there are some ways it may be easier to do so. It’s certainly simpler.

You have chaeto and a light. Plants grow when they get light and chaeto is a plant. You’re shining a light on it so it grows. Problem is, it’s not growing much. So you’ve gone from taking out too little to taking out too little by slightly less. It helps, but it’s not enough. Without carbon, you want lots of chaeto growing vigorously. You need a 5 - 7 gal volume of water to grow the chaeto in. You need decent flow. You need the chaeto to either tumble, or stay under water (I anchor mine to a rock securely so a good sized chunk stays down). Finally, you need energy. You need lots of light. The Kessil is a great light for this. It’s also $300. If you don’t want to spend that, look for hydroponic grow lights on Amazon. I found a LED 300w equivalent for $60. It’s working fairly well for me. One 12w bulb is just not going to get the job done.

Once you have all this, after a few weeks of settling in, your chaeto will start to grow. Initially a small ball will become a slightly larger ball. That’s not going to do much. When the slightly larger ball starts filling up an appreciable portion of your fuge, it will start to make a difference. Problem is even as it starts taking up glorious amounts of waste, there’s just lots more trapped in your system. It’s going to take months of growing and removing (remember not to remove too much at once) before all that stored food starts to deplete.

Your system will look a bit cleaner from the start, but really it’ll continue to look dirty. You can pull out what you can just to help, but time is the answer.

If you stick with it, you’ll wake up one morning in three or four months (or who knows, you may get lucky and it happens sooner) and notice a chunk of algae is just kinda dead. Over weeks it will get better and eventually it will be gone.

It will not happen fast. All the magic algae killing in the world may help improve how it looks for a bit, but it will not solve the problem. You have to outcompete it every day over the long term. That is what will get you back to a happy tank.

Katrina71 · Dec 31, 2017

Embrace the ugly stages. Post pics. I think if you wait it out, you'll be glad you did. Don't give up!

Joe Rice · Jan 1, 2018

In an earlier outbreak, I did try Ultralife Red Slime Remover. It killed probably 98% of the cyano but then the cyano slowly started to return. It might provide you a nice morale boost just to see your tank not covered in cyano, and it's possible it might tilt the balance toward the chaeto.

Potatohead · Jan 1, 2018

I'm fine with being patient, I find it easy to be patient when you see progress along the way. When things keep seemingly getting worse it's hard to believe it will also just magically correct itself, but maybe that's what happens.

My refugium is 5 gallons in a 68 gallon system, so it's not that small. It has been running about two weeks or so and checking it just now there is some cyano growing in it, no HA, chaeto is 10-15% larger than originally, and it does tumble. I can certainly get a better bulb (using 5000k LED) but the bulb is only a couple inches off the surface so a Kessil would just be way too strong.

I really don't feed much, current nitrate is 1-1.5 and phosphate .02-.04. Skimming on the dry side. I believe this mainly started from using dry uncured rock and using a very powerful light, I'm just trying to get over all that and get back on the right track. I feel I am almost there but I have felt that way a few times before too.

Joe Rice · Jan 1, 2018

For what it's worth, I use a 22 watt 3000K led bulb (3 for $45) over my refugium and my macroalgae (Caulerpa, in my case) grows like crazy.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B06Y3YVS3K

Servillius · Jan 1, 2018

Potatohead said:
I'm fine with being patient, I find it easy to be patient when you see progress along the way. When things keep seemingly getting worse it's hard to believe it will also just magically correct itself, but maybe that's what happens.

My refugium is 5 gallons in a 68 gallon system, so it's not that small. It has been running about two weeks or so and checking it just now there is some cyano growing in it, no HA, chaeto is 10-15% larger than originally, and it does tumble. I can certainly get a better bulb (using 5000k LED) but the bulb is only a couple inches off the surface so a Kessil would just be way too strong.

I really don't feed much, current nitrate is 1-1.5 and phosphate .02-.04. Skimming on the dry side. I believe this mainly started from using dry uncured rock and using a very powerful light, I'm just trying to get over all that and get back on the right track. I feel I am almost there but I have felt that way a few times before too.

You will get there if you stick with it.

What is the wattage of the LED? Mine is 110w about 3 inches off the water and is not too much.

Your test numbers will not tell the story. There is an equilibrium between your trapped nutrients, your water, and your chaeto. That keeps the nutrients in solution down, but algae knows how to get at in the rock. That’s why cyano grows on surfaces and why hair algae clings so tenaciously.

The amount you feed today is a small part of the story. It’s the amount that wasn’t being removed over 20 months that you are fighting. You need powerful removal. I’d get more light. In nature plants can soak up way more par than coral. Exploit that fact and it will come right in time.

Imagine running up your credit cards. When you eventually start to turn things around you make a huge effort and see small results. If you keep at it though, it comes right in the end.

Servillius · Jan 1, 2018

Zirco said:
For what it's worth, I use a 22 watt 3000K led bulb (3 for $45) over my refugium and my macroalgae (Caulerpa, in my case) grows like crazy.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B06Y3YVS3K

Energy will grow stuff. That light is a start and it certainly can produce lots of growth.

This will produce more.

Roleadro Upgrade and Newly Developed LED Grow Light Full Spectrum 2nd Generation Series 300w Plants Light https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01HI3AFYM/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_H8PsAbBGZQGS0

It’s the net in vs out balance that matters. Go for the kill.

Myk · Jan 1, 2018

Right off the bat I am late to the party and just skimmed over the previous pages on this thread, so forgive me if I am repeating or missing some details of what you are already doing.

I did see that someone mentioned balance and that is a huge consideration. Also consider the environment that you are looking to replicate. Shallow reef or deeper down where the water has filtered the spectrum heavily.

Not the only way to go but my preference in the case of an 8 tube T5 set is a 6xATI Blue Plus and 2xATI Actinic.

Leverage the benefits of good bacteria that can overtake the cyano. We have found that Fauna Marin's Bacto Balls works really good for this. A carbon dose with trace elements like TE plus or simply just adding trace since your organics already look good with the ESV TE.

Often over looked, but VERY IMPORTANT is access CO2. Using a CO2 scrubber if you are not already doing so will be of benefit. Dosing Kalkwasser will also benefit in the reduction of available CO2 in the tank. I think that there was mention earlier of cheato being used in the system? If so, keep doing it! Use a strong light and dose trace (again with the ESV TE) to get it to grow and also compete with the cyano and other nuisances for available CO2.

Again, I may have already missed this, but what are your pH and Alk. reading at currently?

Don't bail out yet. Sounds like you are already making some slow progress. Lets super charge that and get your system looking awesome and have you loving it in the next couple of weeks!

rkpetersen · Jan 1, 2018

KenO said:
Google hydrogen peroxide, cyano and reef. A person did a very indepth study on how to rid your tank of cyano with H2O2. He also tells you how to test if what you have is cyano or Spirolina. You use 2 cups of tank water, add the stuff growing in your tank to the water and add 1ml of H2O2. If the water turns pink it's cyano. Then use the H2O2 method to rid your tank of the cyano. It worked for me. Takes about 2 weeks. If the water doesn't turn pink it's Spirolina. Use chemiclean. I had a combination of cyano and a little Spirolina. Once the cyano was gone, I used the chemiclean and little amount of Spirolina disappeared.

Yes, I saw this awhile ago. The whole thing seemed anecdotal and poorly tested and documented. Nonetheless, I tried it out when I had a cyano outbreak, and it was indeed complete nonsense. The algae I had a problem with was definitely a non-spirulina species of cyanobacteria (probably oscillatoria), documented by myself with microscopic examination. I did the peroxide test (with a new bottle). The cyano couldn't have cared less. No lysis or pink coloration. I added some more peroxide. Now there were actually gas bubbles appearing on the cyano filaments due to the H2O2 in the water, but no lysis. Fail. I think whoever came up with this found one species or maybe a genus of cyano that were susceptible to peroxide, and generalized that to all cyanobacteria, one of the most genetically diverse groups of organisms on the planet.

My cyano issue cleared with siphoning combined with temporary cessation of amino acid dosing. I don't plan on putting any antibiotics, antimicrobials, antiparasitic, or antiseptics in my DT if I can at all avoid it.

Potatohead · Jan 2, 2018

Sorry for not quoting earlier posts, just being lazy.

The LED is 8w which is 60w incandecent equivalent. It puts out 800 lumens. If more is better that's fine, but should I get like a 5000k PAR30/38, or one of those purple 15-20w grow lights on Amazon? I see the one linked earlier is 2700 lumens. Home Depot has a 6500k mini cfl at 1600 lumens also.

My ph before running the fuge was 7.9-8.1 depending on time of day, I imagine it stays slightly higher now overnight. I have been running my alk at 7.8-8.0 for most of the life of the tank.

Servillius · Jan 2, 2018

Potatohead said:
Sorry for not quoting earlier posts, just being lazy.

The LED is 8w which is 60w incandecent equivalent. It puts out 800 lumens. If more is better that's fine, but should I get like a 5000k PAR30/38, or one of those purple 15-20w grow lights on Amazon? I see the one linked earlier is 2700 lumens. Home Depot has a 6500k mini cfl at 1600 lumens also.

My ph before running the fuge was 7.9-8.1 depending on time of day, I imagine it stays slightly higher now overnight. I have been running my alk at 7.8-8.0 for most of the life of the tank.

I really don’t think those lights have enough juice to do the trick. Here is what I use and there’s a chance I’m being cheap.

300W LED Plant Grow Light Full Spectrum For Greenhouse and Indoor Plants Veg Flower (300W) https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0743CL2GQ/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apip_WCxThH4IYcLpo

Here it is in action.