Cyanobacteria and zero (low) phosphate

[brandon429]

I gotta see the shake test: on cell vid lightly clear off red offender but we're trying to preserve any present detritus if any inside the rock and we can infer the rest of it after assessment

Once cleared of red mat, swish in a white bucket of clean saltwater for 20 seconds, let what it casts settle out, let's see retention characters

Why pull from the water when surface pore emanations are right there/ predicted

In my opinion a swift and thorough cleaning plus swish is a fringing reef for a day + dental visit and flossing run, reef boot camp.

 

[taricha]

I wonder what an acid bath would do to the Tonga rock? I suspect it would remove phosphate. I have no idea what if anything the acid bath would do about the organic material on the rock surface.
I'm with Brandon. I think taking a hunk of the rock and shaking it in tank water to get out the loose material- always amazing how much is hiding - would be informative. If you want to make it more numerical, you could put a beaker of the debris material in the dark and bubble it for two days. When I have done this with debris from my tank, it produced easily measurable nitrate even when my tank itself tested zero. My interpretation is that the debris is a constant slow feeding fertilizer for my nuisance growths.

 

[drawman]

I wonder what an acid bath would do to the Tonga rock? I suspect it would remove phosphate. I have no idea what if anything the acid bath would do about the organic material on the rock surface.
I'm with Brandon. I think taking a hunk of the rock and shaking it in tank water to get out the loose material- always amazing how much is hiding - would be informative. If you want to make it more numerical, you could put a beaker of the debris material in the dark and bubble it for two days. When I have done this with debris from my tank, it produced easily measurable nitrate even when my tank itself tested zero. My interpretation is that the debris is a constant slow feeding fertilizer for my nuisance growths.

I will try to let you guys know what I find tomorrow when I do a water change and assess the rock. Interestingly, this tonga rock was given an acid bath and kept in storage before being placed in the tank. Obviously nutrients/debris have likely reaccumulated.

 

[amazongb]

I had the same problem, 0 phosphates and cyano.. did chemiclean twice, which works, but cyano would always come back. Decided to try dosing Seachem Flourish (phosphates) and over a couple months of dosing and vacuuming cyano during water changes and I am cyano free..

 

[drawman]

I had the same problem, 0 phosphates and cyano.. did chemiclean twice, which works, but cyano would always come back. Decided to try dosing Seachem Flourish (phosphates) and over a couple months of dosing and vacuuming cyano during water changes and I am cyano free..

I'm curious do you remember what level your nitrate was?

 

[amazongb]

I'm curious do you remember what level your nitrate was?

2 to 5, as I started dosing phosphates, nitrates slowly when up to 12 and have now settled around 8.

 

[drawman]

For anyone that would say it's a water flow issue. Certainly there are spots that are getting less flow but I think it's a pretty dynamic system.

 

[drawman]

Well I realized over the last week that I have ostreopsis dinoflagellates as well. The dinos accumulate quite a bit on the glass and moreso on the pumps. Thankfully they aren't quite as dominant as the cyano but they are definitely there.

To combat the dinos I've been trying to raise my NO3 and PO4. The cyano SUCKS up the PO4 immediately and I haven't been able to get a reading above 0 on my Hanna ULR. I'm almost thinking I will need to start daily siphoning and turkey basting to allow anything else to get a foot hold. It's really a weird situation I am in.

I live in a large, closed in apartment building. I've had this thought that potentially I have very high CO2 levels and that could be contributing to the issue. With winter full on here I don't have the ability to get any airflow let alone run a skimmer line outside. Makes me wonder if setting up a fuge in my sump and running chaeto would tip the balance between O2/CO2. @taricha and @brandon429 am I crazy here? That said I have been dosing H202 at a rate of 1mL/10g 2x daily for the last 2 weeks or so (which has had zero effect on this rampant cyano and dinos).

 

[taricha]

Makes me wonder if setting up a fuge in my sump and running chaeto would tip the balance between O2/CO2. @taricha and @brandon429 am I crazy here? That said I have been dosing H202 at a rate of 1mL/10g 2x daily for the last 2 weeks or so (which has had zero effect on this rampant cyano and dinos).

Not crazy.
The significant daily pH swing increase during lights-on, drop during lights-off tells you that the photosynthesis is actually bringing down the CO2 level in the water in biologically relevant amounts. That people can somewhat lessen the pH swing by reverse lighting a fuge tells us that even photosynthesis in a fuge-only can measurably reduce CO2.
Although, it may be well down on the list of ways that a macroalgae fuge competes with nuisance algaes, that is also one thing that happens.

peroxide as a tank-wide treatment suffers from the fact that you have no idea what the oxidizer targets are. There are all kinds of organisms and chemicals that react with h2o2 and so hoping it will target particular nuisances in a tank-wide application may be overly optimistic.

 

[drawman]

Not crazy.
The significant daily pH swing increase during lights-on, drop during lights-off tells you that the photosynthesis is actually bringing down the CO2 level in the water in biologically relevant amounts. That people can somewhat lessen the pH swing by reverse lighting a fuge tells us that even photosynthesis in a fuge-only can measurably reduce CO2.
Although, it may be well down on the list of ways that a macroalgae fuge competes with nuisance algaes, that is also one thing that happens.

peroxide as a tank-wide treatment suffers from the fact that you have no idea what the oxidizer targets are. There are all kinds of organisms and chemicals that react with h2o2 and so hoping it will target particular nuisances in a tank-wide application may be overly optimistic.

It's funny you say that yesterday I was thinking of cutting the peroxide for two reasons. First off, I have been dosing it close to my skimmer and it ends up skimming extremely wet for the short period after dosing and oddly I feel my skimmer has been less effective. Second, the peroxide is likely having more of an effect on film and hair algae and doesn't seem to do much of anything on the cyano and dinos so I'm not really tipping the balance at this point.

I've noticed since dosing NO3 and PO4 dinos have gotten a little worse. Again I suspect this could be from the H202 targetting film and hair algae.

 

[dvp95]

Update? Im battling a case of thick cyano as well. I dosed phos and trying to get it up now. Chemiclean didnt work much, h2o2 hasnt done much after 6 days

 

[ScottB]

Well I realized over the last week that I have ostreopsis dinoflagellates as well. The dinos accumulate quite a bit on the glass and moreso on the pumps. Thankfully they aren't quite as dominant as the cyano but they are definitely there.

To combat the dinos I've been trying to raise my NO3 and PO4. The cyano SUCKS up the PO4 immediately and I haven't been able to get a reading above 0 on my Hanna ULR. I'm almost thinking I will need to start daily siphoning and turkey basting to allow anything else to get a foot hold. It's really a weird situation I am in.

I live in a large, closed in apartment building. I've had this thought that potentially I have very high CO2 levels and that could be contributing to the issue. With winter full on here I don't have the ability to get any airflow let alone run a skimmer line outside. Makes me wonder if setting up a fuge in my sump and running chaeto would tip the balance between O2/CO2. @taricha and @brandon429 am I crazy here? That said I have been dosing H202 at a rate of 1mL/10g 2x daily for the last 2 weeks or so (which has had zero effect on this rampant cyano and dinos).

I don't know if low pH is still something you are looking to address, but I have been running a CO2 scrubber to & from my skimmer. For my basement system that had low pH. It has raised my average pH by .25.

 

[drawman]

I don't know if low pH is still something you are looking to address, but I have been running a CO2 scrubber to & from my skimmer. For my basement system that had low pH. It has raised my average pH by .25.

I've certainly debated it but I am not actively measuring pH at the moment. I'll be moving in the Summer so I'm trying to minimize new equipment additions. I will say the UV sterilizer I am using for ostreopsis dinos has 99% eliminated cyano which is a nice side effect.

 

[ScottB]

I've certainly debated it but I am not actively measuring pH at the moment. I'll be moving in the Summer so I'm trying to minimize new equipment additions. I will say the UV sterilizer I am using for ostreopsis dinos has 99% eliminated cyano which is a nice side effect.

Hmmm. That is an interesting & positive side effect; I've not heard that before.

I asked about the pH because I recalled some tests that were discussed in the "Are you tired" thread that raising pH was a component of alternative dino treatment.

 

[drawman]

Hmmm. That is an interesting & positive side effect; I've not heard that before.

I asked about the pH because I recalled some tests that were discussed in the "Are you tired" thread that raising pH was a component of alternative dino treatment.

I really should buck up and buy a pH probe. My apartment is in an old renovated brewery so it is about as closed in as a place could be. I know (without measuring) that my CO2 load has to be high. If I wasn't planning on moving I definitely would get a CO2 scrubber. I've also debated getting some chaeto and/or kalk going just for that purpose.

 

[Vwluv10338]

@drawman
I’m in the same situation as you. Started a new tank with dry rock that cycled in a tote for a few months. I have cyano taking over in mats and my ULR phosphate is reading zero. When I look back at my notes it was stable at .06 and things were fine but it’s been zero for 20 days now and it’s just getting worse. I did the Dr Tims system of MB7/waste away and it did nothing. Peroxide seemed to work at first but not anymore. Dosed p04 now to try and get it up. Nitrates are between 12 and 25 on Salifert test. I had dinos in my last tank so I need to get po4 up

 

[drawman]

@drawman
I’m in the same situation as you. Started a new tank with dry rock that cycled in a tote for a few months. I have cyano taking over in mats and my ULR phosphate is reading zero. When I look back at my notes it was stable at .06 and things were fine but it’s been zero for 20 days now and it’s just getting worse. I did the Dr Tims system of MB7/waste away and it did nothing. Peroxide seemed to work at first but not anymore. Dosed p04 now to try and get it up. Nitrates are between 12 and 25 on Salifert test. I had dinos in my last tank so I need to get po4 up

Sorry to hear it. I ended up moving and have the tank setup (without lights, coral, or fish yet) with the same rock. I'm sure I'll go through the uglies again.

Hopefully you can get the PO4 up and siphon out the cyano mats at the same time. Let me know how it goes!