Cycling a new tank- am I doing this correctly?????

[brandon429]

MN your rip clean study threads are really good and for the types of controls you enacted and charted, work threads would be unhelpful. you were measuring using lab precision testing ability the impact of various cleaning routines on saltwater rocks/surfaces, if we crowdsourced that info it would be a total mess of relayed ammonia reading outcomes vs using tightly controlled means


I make the case nitrite can't be tested in that way, you'll not be able to set up enough tanks and keep them into maturity like the public can to be able to track fish disease expression. In that way I think its fascinating how some matters are better investigated singularly vs the plural

if waiting to complete nitrite compliance before adding fish comprises about 98% of all posts for help in the fish disease forum, any page from any year...

 

[brandon429]

also in play: the hundreds and hundreds of worked cycles we produce that are nitrite positive when they add animals, and then we track those reefs out for months and in some cases years to see how they worked out, don't show any positive or negative change in disease expression. We don't get less reports of disease, nor more, which strongly reinforces the notion that disease expression has nothing to do with how one cycles a reef regarding nitrite. am talking hundreds and hundreds of patterned follow ups, we'd see clues by now if + nitrite mattered, and again api nitrite doesn't just become the best checker in the world all of a sudden just because that's the only means 99% have to measure nitrite.


reefers don't have a way to know their nitrite reliably even if they wanted to.

 

[MnFish1]

But you don't have any work threads on the matter, zero, none?

you aren't able to state from any direct inference any aspect of nitrite impacts in cycling or fish disease is that correct? if you had 10 or 20 examples of decent patterning I'd accept your summary, but not without any


I feel that the work threads I've collected for the past decade present sufficient patterning in the matter to make commentary.

I have given you multiple 'work-threads' - i.e. my own experience. My work threads are: I have never even tested ammonia or nitrite while "cycling" a tank. Thus - I'm certainly no cheerleader for nitrite testing one way or the other. In other words - In a large sense I agree with you - if you don't need ammonia testing, you don't need nitrite testing.

My point was - there are certain trains of thought (including nearly every published paper on the nitrification cycle) - that suggest the cycle is complete when ammonia spikes and falls nitrite spikes and falls - and nitrates rise.

BTW - I think that the reason I (and many others - your work threads) get away with it - is because of bottled bacteria (or live rock additions at the start). If the bottled bacteria contains both bacteria that process nitrite and ammonia, there is very little reason to test nitrite.

If someone is doing a cycle with no bacteria - and no 'live rock' - I can see where testing nitrite is helpful. That was what I was trying to say above.

 

[brandon429]

BContos let me know when you see any new growths transmit onto the white rock portion...one strand of gha counts, or a little red slime, maybe a thimble sized patch of cyano on the sand or a portion of the non live rock


those biomarkers are amazing, and they come after those substrates have already been coated in functioning filter bacteria. I realize the going trend is to debate anything I relay/that keeps up evolution for claims going well/ but again we have been studying cycle visual biomarkers for about 40 straight pages and six years in one single thread and the cycling results are 100% happy customers. the remark comes from prior practice assigning start dates to those markers, its not a flippant comment, truly interested to know if you have any new popups

in fact I bet your biomarkers start around the tank soon if not already. any new growths yet?


for constant doubters: a test-set up any dry rock system whether its a 50 50 live/dry mix or just a common dry rock setup either cycled with bottle bac or no bac, simply use feed and wait. as soon as you see biomarkers on the surfaces run a seneye ammonia oxidation test, see if it passes, report back here. Don't check for ammonia until you see the biomarkers.

 

[LRT]

Mind-boggling the whole Nitrite arguement is still steaming ahead.
Randy gives us Ammonia option for cycling tanks-

Randy is it ok to Cycle tanks testing only for Ammonia?

The question has come up in a different thread. More specifically if we set up a tank using small measured feedings with cured rock and rubble and a few cuc and Nitrates only register at 2ppm at highest through the entire process of Cycling ammonia back to 0 readings with Api and ammonia is...

www.reef2reef.com

Please help me solve my nitrite mystery!

OK, this is my first saltwater aquarium. I migrated over from 8 years or so of freshwater and I've never encountered this issue before. I'm going to give a timeline so it's easier to follow: Mar 9th: Cycle started with dead grocery store shrimp. Mar 9th - 20th: Ammonia spiked and went to...

www.reef2reef.com

Nitrites are so last year

 

[brandon429]

wonderful post. I don't have any trouble listening to the top chemist in all of reefing, when we test his claims in cycle work threads they turn out perfect.

 

[LRT]

wonderful post. I don't have any trouble listening to the top chemist in all of reefing, when we test his claims in cycle work threads they turn out perfect.

Lol I suppose we could maybe poke some serious holes in his reasoning if I went out and found me one of these old desert horny toads and tried testing his thoeries with some old stagnant fresh water from a creek or something

Haha I joke but all jokes aside not only is it perfect but super efficient to cycle with ammonia with measured feeds to build bioloads. Im 100% sold

 

[BContos]

BContos let me know when you see any new growths transmit onto the white rock portion...one strand of gha counts, or a little red slime, maybe a thimble sized patch of cyano on the sand or a portion of the non live rock


those biomarkers are amazing, and they come after those substrates have already been coated in functioning filter bacteria. I realize the going trend is to debate anything I relay/that keeps up evolution for claims going well/ but again we have been studying cycle visual biomarkers for about 40 straight pages and six years in one single thread and the cycling results are 100% happy customers. the remark comes from prior practice assigning start dates to those markers, its not a flippant comment, truly interested to know if you have any new popups

in fact I bet your biomarkers start around the tank soon if not already. any new growths yet?


for constant doubters: a test-set up any dry rock system whether its a 50 50 live/dry mix or just a common dry rock setup either cycled with bottle bac or no bac, simply use feed and wait. as soon as you see biomarkers on the surfaces run a seneye ammonia oxidation test, see if it passes, report back here. Don't check for ammonia until you see the biomarkers.

I have noticed a orange/brown color popping up on my back glass as of about a week ago. On the dry rock I am noticing small fragments of something? starting to sway in the water here and there. But I haven't noticed any algae growth or anything like that on the rocks in the DT tank. My sump however I have noticed the rocks in the refugium appear to have that same orangey brown color to them. It is a little hard to tell with the purple tones in my refugium light. I introduced my CUC this weekend and did my first water change. Everything is continuing to look great!!

 

[brandon429]

that was predicted due to the inherent submersion timing we see in our biomarker threads, if it wasn't there by now I'd have expected it this week sometime. being cast to the glass and down into the sump is the confirmation we look for, tested on seneye I bet this reef can process the full 2 ppm we're trained to assess with

that does not mean dose 2 ppm and hope it clears on api, red sea, or any other non digital kit only seneye. this tank has multiple markers for cycle completion now in place, and if I'm not wrong we're approaching or have passed day ten of the wait which coincides with the ammonia drop line on every cycling chart written. these factors all line up across cycles to imply such a tightly controlled event, its amazing.


old school cycling is 100% an open ended wait that you can't plan anything from, and its based on accepting whatever reading any test kit gives you regardless of the other markers that line up here-wait longer is its constant advice. old cycling science is bad lol. its designed to keep buyers in their place, and sellers who never use the old rules on top.


the reason I say designed vs some mistake its purveyors made is because they're still teaching its tenets even though everyone has access to seneye data which shows the claims are incorrect, reef tank cycles don't stall.

I'm aware anyone can just type: seneye isn't correct and keep the doubt flowing.


but, seneye aligns with the predictive markers used here and in hundreds of other threads, and a calibrated seneye aligns with a full tank shot in running reefs without much variance at all. non digital kits will never amount to that consistency among the masses-the majority of any non digital ammonia testers will entertain a stalled cycle thought process even though their display tank is doing just fine, and they can see that.

the only thing I like about old cycling science are its cycling charts. we test those constantly and they pass, on seneye at least.

 

[BContos]

that was predicted due to the inherent submersion timing we see in our biomarker threads, if it wasn't there by now I'd have expected it this week sometime. being cast to the glass and down into the sump is the confirmation we look for, tested on seneye I bet this reef can process the full 2 ppm we're trained to assess with

that does not mean dose 2 ppm and hope it clears on api, red sea, or any other non digital kit only seneye. this tank has multiple markers for cycle completion now in place, and if I'm not wrong we're approaching or have passed day ten of the wait which coincides with the ammonia drop line on every cycling chart written. these factors all line up across cycles to imply such a tightly controlled event, its amazing.


old school cycling is 100% an open ended wait that you can't plan anything from, and its based on accepting whatever reading any test kit gives you regardless of the other markers that line up here-wait longer is its constant advice. old cycling science is bad lol. its designed to keep buyers in their place, and sellers who never use the old rules on top.


the reason I say designed vs some mistake its purveyors made is because they're still teaching its tenets even though everyone has access to seneye data which shows the claims are incorrect, reef tank cycles don't stall.

I'm aware anyone can just type: seneye isn't correct and keep the doubt flowing.


but, seneye aligns with the predictive markers used here and in hundreds of other threads, and a calibrated seneye aligns with a full tank shot in running reefs without much variance at all. non digital kits will never amount to that consistency among the masses-the majority of any non digital ammonia testers will entertain a stalled cycle thought process even though their display tank is doing just fine, and they can see that.

Today marks day 18! Friday I went to my LFS and purchased 3 Emerald crabs, a bottle of pods and 5 hermits. They were wiped clean and not expecting anything else for weeks. I drove into the next large town on Sunday and got 4 turbo snails, 4 bumblebee snails, a sand conch (my favorite of the lot) 2 peppermint shrimp, chaeto (sp?), phytoplankton and impulsively bought a large feather duster. This place was out of just about everything as well.

When I added the 2 peppermints after everyone was acclimated and introduced to the tank one of the peppermints flew into the rock work and hid while the other one stayed at the top of the tank hanging out on the seam by the waterline. I immediately started panicking thinking I had done something wrong. My husband was like sheesh calm down its going to be okay and I was near hysterical thinking I messed everything up and the test results were wrong even though I checked them twice before adding the CUC. Thankfully within a few hours (and once the lights were out) he joined his friend in the rocks. I also had no idea they swayed back and forth and my husband was concerned we received 'brain damaged' shrimp lol That was so stressful. My Emerald crabs are hiding a lot more now that the other guys have been added which is a little saddening. I really enjoyed sitting and watching them

 

[brandon429]

A nitrite intercept here. I guarantee more bottle bac was about to get sold but the team had that fixed right off the bat

Stalled Nitrogen Cycle - Advice?

Hi everyone, I'm new to the hobby. I've been trying to read up on stalled nitrogen cycles but my situation seems to be different from the trouble that most people have. I set up a 20 gallon tank about 3 weeks ago. My goal is to start with a pair of clown fish and eventually add some corals...

www.reef2reef.com

see how cycling science is changing right before us


in about a year or two we will have it pretty well suppressed here. Then onto nano-reef.com they’re very hesitant to believe any of it. It’ll take till 2030 to get them on board

 

[BContos]

Are these Diatoms or something else? Will it help/hurt to attempt to scrub them off when I do my water change tomorrow?

 

[brandon429]

this is my honest breakdown

if you clean it meticulously using up a few gallons water change and keep the reef shiny from day now till day 1000 where no viewer ever gets any form of excuse about maturation, or invasion cycling, they just see a shiny diamond at all times, that will not harm your reef.





and then there's all the other options

the price is you'll spend more gallons of water than the other ways. but not much, if you'll be thorough and start early before anything ever gets a foothold

its not that any of these upcoming growths are bad, its that we like it better when you skip through three community successions that are no fun vs wait them out, and post pics of challenges. repeat manual effort right when you'd rather be on cruise control is how. cruise control is earned, it arrives in 2024


be stacking in corals not a joke, and feeding them well before cleaning events. where coral mouths grow, invasions by and large will not, don't leave the real estate and be working until your real estate is all coral mouths. scrape clean the walls now and forever, fight reef passivity, bumper sticker it

 

[brandon429]

if this tank is large, you're going to need a uv sterilizer if you want to save expected work


and if not, that's not a problem. simply sub in double will to make the same outcome anyway without its help.

if its a small reef then no uv is needed, when some growths hit your rocks you don't alter the params in response, or let it grow, you'd lift out the rock, kill the bad stuff, set the rock back.

see how there's a tendency to keep one's front lawn compliant and shiny by force, relative to how you want to be seen in the community, but then right inside the walls of the house a reef lurks bent in dandelions, milkweed and general mess. we can't have that duality

so cheat it clean with uv like folks cheat with roundup.

 

[BContos]

I didn’t know if scrubbing off- whatever it is- would make it spread more. I don’t want to have a dirty looking tank

 

[brandon429]

if some fragment and flow around then it legit might spread. that's why uv is such a help I'd recommend a mere $89 jebao simple pond sterilizer off amazon rated for like a 1500 gallon pond, its small and perfect and saves work.


people are trained to literally wreck their reefs and let them take 8 months to slowly, hopefully, cycle through 3-5 expected legitimate invasion sequences that have nothing to do with bad params.


many thousands of them branch off along the way and mess with testing phophates, try and zap them, adding 8 more months of dinos



and then there's resolved, creative determined, uv-owning because you can send it back if it doesnt work reef forced clean even if some do spread


there's creative modes to all though:

most people stick in a wipe full power on and remove it, casting bits


the creative would still the tank, wipe up carefully, true precision export.

when it hits a rock the rock is lifted, and over the kitchen sink a steak knife tip lightly scores off any growths that are not coralline or a cool animal, and rinsed off with saltwater, and set back.


then it runs for days and days and you repeat as needed, this is new tank guiding. this is not sitting back saying "invade me!"
that's what everyone does.

we can make use of your cycle vs leave open real estate for algae to colonize. you should buy two hundred dollars worth of candy corals, brain corals, assorted lps and make sure your reef light has been shown growing any species you're going to buy, before you buy the frag. take up some space with coral mouths

and you can feed them, change water weekly and be guiding out growths, ensuring cleanliness, and make the reef work and then in 2024 it'll get better but you'll have fat corals by then.

for 3-6 months your only tests are for salinity and temp, not the others

because weekly the water changes you do, small guiding water changes, along with feeding and cleanup of unused feed etc, that keeps all params in place. you'll get the hang of it generally within 3-6 mos and then if you want to start messing with phosphate or nitrates then and bring on dinos, you'll know how to fix dinos.


by not sitting right there and allowing them to take over your tank, not ever, not once. get uv

 

[LRT]

I didn’t know if scrubbing off- whatever it is- would make it spread more. I don’t want to have a dirty looking tank

I personally hook up a 5 micron filter to my overflows in bottom of sump. I try to diligently clean all glass surfaces weekly almost like I have to go to work. The 5 micron makes quick work of everything I scrape off. I then siphon my sand once the water column is clear.
My advice is to get in good habit of husbandry now. Ive gotten my 80 gallon down to about 20 minutes a week taking my time as so its not much like work. If you stay up on it and in control its much easier to keep controlled.
Also great way to remove the gunk and not do water changes if they are not necessary.
My tank is spotless though and I like to keep it that way. Keeps my Cuc working looking for surfaces to clean.

 

[brandon429]

apologies

if this is a fish only tank/ still get uv

 

[brandon429]

LRT/ spoken by someone with a completely clean system. accepted!

 

[BContos]

if some fragment and flow around then it legit might spread. that's why uv is such a help I'd recommend a mere $89 jebao simple pond sterilizer off amazon rated for like a 1500 gallon pond, its small and perfect and saves work.


people are trained to literally wreck their reefs and let them take 8 months to slowly, hopefully, cycle through 3-5 expected legitimate invasion sequences that have nothing to do with bad params.


many thousands of them branch off along the way and mess with testing phophates, try and zap them, adding 8 more months of dinos



and then there's resolved, creative determined, uv-owning because you can send it back if it doesnt work reef forced clean even if some do spread


there's creative modes to all though:

most people stick in a wipe full power on and remove it, casting bits


the creative would still the tank, wipe up carefully, true precision export.

when it hits a rock the rock is lifted, and over the kitchen sink a steak knife tip lightly scores off any growths that are not coralline or a cool animal, and rinsed off with saltwater, and set back.


then it runs for days and days and you repeat as needed, this is new tank guiding. this is not sitting back saying "invade me!"
that's what everyone does.

we can make use of your cycle vs leave open real estate for algae to colonize. you should buy two hundred dollars worth of candy corals, brain corals, assorted lps and make sure your reef light has been shown growing any species you're going to buy, before you buy the frag. take up some space with coral mouths

and you can feed them, change water weekly and be guiding out growths, ensuring cleanliness, and make the reef work and then in 2024 it'll get better but you'll have fat corals by then.

for 3-6 months your only tests are for salinity and temp, not the others

because weekly the water changes you do, small guiding water changes, along with feeding and cleanup of unused feed etc, that keeps all params in place. you'll get the hang of it generally within 3-6 mos and then if you want to start messing with phosphate or nitrates then and bring on dinos, you'll know how to fix dinos.


by not sitting right there and allowing them to take over your tank, not ever, not once. get uv

We aren’t adding corals or news to this tank- at least not any time soon. I actually bought a 30 gallon cube to do that in. This will be a singular species specific tank. I’ll look into a UV sterilizer though! Thank you!!