Cycling dry, mined rock in a vat..suggestions

[DrLazyReef]

I've got 70 pounds of dry reef rock and some more of mined rock I wanna cycle/cook in a 300 litre vat. I am not very keen on live rock because I don't want any pests. Although I know it creates less problems and swings.

Ideally I want it to soak for four months but maybe can stretch it more.
I want to avoid or at least minimize any ugly phase.
I have an assortment of bottled bacteria and some brightwell fastart.

I've got ammonia and ammonium sulphate as well. I can source some uncured live rock and put in the vat too.
I don't feel like playing mad scientist and dumping everything ;Bucktooth,
So I thought best ask some seasoned folks for suggestions how to best approach.

 

[KrisReef]

Get that live rock, soak it all in the same bin for 4 months. Test the water, probably need to treat to lower phosphate (known hitchhiker element even from quarry rocks). Living pests on the live rock can be dealt with during the 4 months of soaking. If you put the live rock inside a mesh bag or micron sock(s) the bacteria will be fine but other hitchhikers will be in quarantine inside the socks.
Good luck!

 

[DrLazyReef]

Get that live rock, soak it all in the same bin for 4 months. Test the water, probably need to treat to lower phosphate (known hitchhiker element even from quarry rocks). Living pests on the live rock can be dealt with during the 4 months of soaking. If you put the live rock inside a mesh bag or micron sock(s) the bacteria will be fine but other hitchhikers will be in quarantine inside the socks.
Good luck!

Will test for phosphate with hanna checker after two weeks of soak.
Living pests will survive in the dark that long?

 

[brandon429]

Quickest easiest most certain way: add the quick cycling bacteria only to the vat of rocks and saltwater


add three pinches of heavily ground up fish food to the mix, pulverized fish flakes


wait two weeks, it’s cycled. It cannot fail to be cycled. testing anything won’t matter this is a timing based cycle. Nothing could stop this cycle from being ready in fourteen days.

doubling the wait time alone to 30 days using the feed only and not one product shown above also works here is proof:

Build Thread - My SPS Waterbox Peninsula Mini 15

Hi all. Long time member (I think I joined right around when R2R started or took off years ago) but got out of the hobby for about 6 years and now I am back! I don't see many build threads for the PM 15 (mostly the 25) so thought I'd share my journey here. This post will be a bit behind...

www.reef2reef.com

this is the primary benefit of updated cycling science. There is nothing you can do to stop the known completion date for the planned arrangement, the stew just mixes on its own two weeks and bacteria have implanted in all contact zones by then.

if your goal was to be ready for a reef convention or a new home with timeliness, we can do that using submersion date timing. The most important part of the cycle is what you select to prevent disease emergence in fish within the new system, that is the real threat to fish the threat isn’t an incomplete cycle. From fish food you get carbon, phosphate, ammonia via protein/amino acid deamination. Fish food is the trick, Dr Reefs booster trick. No liquid ammonia needed.

 

[MnFish1]

Quickest easiest most certain way: add the quick cycling bacteria only to the vat of rocks and saltwater


add three pinches of heavily ground up fish food to the mix, pulverized fish flakes


wait two weeks, it’s cycled. It cannot fail to be cycled. testing anything won’t matter this is a timing based cycle. Nothing could stop this cycle from being ready in fourteen days.

doubling the wait time alone to 30 days using the feed only and not one product shown above also works here is proof:

Build Thread - My SPS Waterbox Peninsula Mini 15

Hi all. Long time member (I think I joined right around when R2R started or took off years ago) but got out of the hobby for about 6 years and now I am back! I don't see many build threads for the PM 15 (mostly the 25) so thought I'd share my journey here. This post will be a bit behind...

www.reef2reef.com

this is the primary benefit of updated cycling science. There is nothing you can do to stop the known completion date for the planned arrangement, the stew just mixes on its own two weeks and bacteria have implanted in all contact zones by then.

Isn't he doing what he is doing (leaving them in a vat for months) in an attempt to leach out any PO4? (I will be the heretic here - and say - it will not make much if any difference).

@DrLazyReef Since you asked for advice - is the rock you have (dried) - has it previously been cleaned somehow - or merely taken out of the ocean and dried? If you're worried about PO4, you could always use a lanthanum or GFO reactor in the 'tub'.

If it were me - I would take it - pile it up in my tank - and do whatever in the tank - with all the filtration etc running. Testing for PO4, etc - and doing water changes (large ones) - if its rising. I'm not sure you're going to have less 'uglies' letting the rock sit in a vat of water for 4 months (unless there is a ton of dead stuff on it) - the cycling part will be quite simple as Brandon said.

 

[DrLazyReef]

Quickest easiest most certain way: add the quick cycling bacteria only to the vat of rocks and saltwater


add three pinches of heavily ground up fish food to the mix, pulverized fish flakes


wait two weeks, it’s cycled. It cannot fail to be cycled. testing anything won’t matter this is a timing based cycle. Nothing could stop this cycle from being ready in fourteen days.

doubling the wait time alone to 30 days using the feed only and not one product shown above also works here is proof:

Build Thread - My SPS Waterbox Peninsula Mini 15

Hi all. Long time member (I think I joined right around when R2R started or took off years ago) but got out of the hobby for about 6 years and now I am back! I don't see many build threads for the PM 15 (mostly the 25) so thought I'd share my journey here. This post will be a bit behind...

www.reef2reef.com

this is the primary benefit of updated cycling science. There is nothing you can do to stop the known completion date for the planned arrangement, the stew just mixes on its own two weeks and bacteria have implanted in all contact zones by then.

I understand that nitrogen cycle can be quickly established by ghost feed. but what i am aiming for is a diverse genera of bacteria, less chance of outcompeting "bad bacteria" viz a viz vibrio, bacillus, arthrobacter, pseudomonas, brevibacterium etc. These strains dissolve inorganic phosphate bound in rock and are pathogenic.
I wouldn't have bothered so much and just hook up my biopellet reactor with a bit of pellet. Also got Fiji mud, all that bacteria, cycle starter.
But best do it right, i have specific goals for NPS.

 

[MnFish1]

I understand that nitrogen cycle can be quickly established by ghost feed. but what i am aiming for is a diverse genera of bacteria, less chance of outcompeting "bad bacteria" viz a viz vibrio, bacillus, arthrobacter, pseudomonas, brevibacterium etc. These strains dissolve inorganic phosphate bound in rock and are pathogenic.
I wouldn't have bothered so much and just hook up my biopellet reactor with a bit of pellet. Also got Fiji mud, all that bacteria, cycle starter.
But best do it right, i have specific goals for NPS.

Just a quick comment. I do not believe (as a microbiologist) - that any of the things you're suggesting will decrease the likelihood of lets say vibrio - from being in your tank. You will almost certainly have pseudomonas, bacillus, etc. There is bacillus on our skin. I do not think soaking the rock for x months will increase diversity - but rather decrease it. Diversity (IMHO) is added when you add new things to your tank (and by that I mean fish, coral, clean-up crews, etc). I know this is a bit off topic. But if you want diversity - put living things in your tank sooner than later. And if you want less uglies - put living things in your tank sooner than later. Glad to see your thinking about all this stuff!!

 

[brandon429]

Not anything you add from the group above will suppress pathogens, these are aquarium additives.


If you study the posts where new and old reef tanks are dna sampled, such as aquabiomics posts, none of the original dosed strains are present.


i didn’t recall any of the strains you listed above being found DrLR, the pathogens / they’re not a concern in typical setups especially during the cycle.

naturally selected clades win, always in about a year after setup… that’s what dna sampling shows


whether you add mixed sources of bacteria or just use one source, same outcome by week two. The key detailing needs to be in the fish disease prep selection process you’d be amazed how many attempts never planned on implementing any sort of disease protocol.


all those additives bought above dont make a better or more able biofilter, your surface area is the limiter and in the arrangement above at two weeks it will be fully functional, it will perform the same ammonia control on a seneye machine that dosing all the additives combined would control. In four months after setup, resident bacteria matching your environment overtake initial strains within the crevices / surface area

 

[DrLazyReef]

Just a quick comment. I do not believe (as a microbiologist) - that any of the things you're suggesting will decrease the likelihood of lets say vibrio - from being in your tank. You will almost certainly have pseudomonas, bacillus, etc. There is bacillus on our skin. I do not think soaking the rock for x months will increase diversity - but rather decrease it. Diversity (IMHO) is added when you add new things to your tank (and by that I mean fish, coral, clean-up crews, etc). I know this is a bit off topic. But if you want diversity - put living things in your tank sooner than later. And if you want less uglies - put living things in your tank sooner than later. Glad to see your thinking about all this stuff!!

well I've got 15 pounds of uncured rock I have to cook in that vat too. Gotta diy my sump and tank. Set up a frag system, figure out a good source to get coral and the logistics, reefing is kinda illegal here ;Droid. Four months is a liberal estimate hopefully, no rush.

 

[MnFish1]

well I've got 15 pounds of uncured rock I have to cook in that vat too. Gotta diy my sump and tank. Set up a frag system, figure out a good source to get coral and the logistics, reefing is kinda illegal here ;Droid. Four months is a liberal estimate hopefully, no rush.

AHHHHH I thought you were in the USA

 

[KrisReef]

well I've got 15 pounds of uncured rock I have to cook in that vat too. Gotta diy my sump and tank. Set up a frag system, figure out a good source to get coral and the logistics, reefing is kinda illegal here ;Droid. Four months is a liberal estimate hopefully, no rush.

Fantastic!
I'm distracted at home painting and I wanted to get this discussion started to answer your original questions. Looks like some really good answers have been provided by some of the science folks on here.
We don't know enough specifics on microbiome competition in reef tanks to provide repetable results to the total reef health questions. My suggestion to keep the live rock quarantined was specific to macro hitchhikers (crabs, glass anemones, etc) with the hopes that those kinds of invaders would be kept out from the beginning. The robust bacterial discussion already had would not be stopped by a 200 micro filter sock!

NPS @Dr. Dendrostein may have some useful tips for you.

Good luck on your reefing quest. I pray that it remains undetected to enforcement while it thrives for you!

 

[DrLazyReef]

So i decided to get 20 odd kilos, i.e. 44lbs of the uncured rock against 15lbs earlier by rail freight.
Was supposed to ship out today but got delayed to the next train next week, plus 5 days cross country i.e. 12 days
Is it a concern if it sits in a box that long ? The seller wrapped the stuff in wet newspaper and few layers of plastic wrap.

 

[DrLazyReef]

Meanwhile ill soak my dry rock which i powerwashed thorough, bio blocks/spheres and some of refugium rubble

 

[MnFish1]

I would be concerned about 5 vs 12 days. I would ask the person you bought it from exactly what they would recommend?

 

[DrLazyReef]

I would be concerned about 5 vs 12 days. I would ask the person you bought it from exactly what they would recommend?

I insisted on putting it back in water but he refused to open, redo the packaging. Said it will retain moisture with the news paper and plastic wrap.
I'll just put it when it arrives with the rest of the dry rock in the covered vat, with water circulation I presume ?
I guess I'll just find out how it is when it gets here.

 

[MnFish1]

I insisted on putting it back in water but he refused to open, redo the packaging. Said it will retain moisture with the news paper and plastic wrap.
I'll just put it when it arrives with the rest of the dry rock in the covered vat, with water circulation I presume ?
I guess I'll just find out how it is when it gets here.

I'm still not quite sure why you're buying live rock - and then putting it in a dark vat?

 

[DrLazyReef]

I'm still not quite sure why you're buying live rock - and then putting it in a dark vat?

To get rid of the pests, hitchhikers, macro algae. Just to retain the microbiome hopefully. I'll try to avoid any pests in this build best I can.
In a future fun build, I'd want to retain all that comes with the live rock, And experiment with some products

 

[DrLazyReef]

As good as it can get for the time it took to reach I suppose. Takes two days by train, but sat two weeks at the rail yard.
Still some colour left. Getting another batch by post, hopefully reaches sooner.
I will stick with the plan to cure it and the rest of the stuff together in the dark for the no pest thing. Although any arguments for otherwise, alternatives?