Cycling Stalled, Please Help! No Ammonia, VERY HIGH Nitrite and Nitrate

brandon429

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Cell’s ref call above holds true even if seneye doesn’t agree that’s what is so neat about updated cycling science

the new system was ready based on this assembly clue:
“4 weeks ago (CaribSea Dry Sand & LifeRock). I went the route of Dr. Tim's One and Only”

4 weeks after Dr Tims is always ready, and when a test kit doesn’t agree the kit is off, not the biology, even if it’s seneye. I had no idea they could hang like that.

test kits don’t ever take precedence over submersion date timing, because all cycling charts solve for time the same way, there aren’t long charts and quick charts, that’s just how aquarists post their own test interpretations.
 
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dryza

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The seneye was pretty accurate throughout the whole cycle process. Below is the NH3 chart and as you can see, I started on the correct path of adding Dr. Tim's Ammonium Chloride drops. Then the accidental super dose (rookie move) and then the WC to lower (Note: I only registered the first two water changes in the Seneye APP).

That last hump you see on the chart, that's when I added ammonia again and it quickly dropped on it's own. Hence my assumption that the system was indeed cycled, which you and Cell validated as well.

Re: The Seneye NH3 graph being hung. Apparently the issue is cosmetic and the device retains all historical metrics and once Seneye support resets the dashboard, it should display NH3 readings for the duration that the online graph was stuck. Or least that's what the article explains. We'll see when they actually reset it.


1635247178433.png
 

brandon429

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Fascinating tracking and input really well done/ I learned something new about the ‘eye lol off this exchange that can be relayed to other folks if we see strange hangs
 
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dryza

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I think the most important thing regarding the Seneye is that they calculate Ammonia (NH3) very differently then the typical off the shelf Ammonia (NH3/NH4) test kits (API, Red Sea, etc). This is how I got burnt into overdosing.

Here's a feedback I received from Seneye Support regarding Ammonia Reading:


Please do be cautious when comparing Seneye's NH3 readings with other Ammonia testing kits. The seneye is one of the only tests you can get where it measures NH3 directly, with most other tests reading NH3/NH4 (total ammonia) and only beginning to sense at 0.2 whereas the seneye starts to read at 0.001. The level of NH3 compared to the measurement of the total ammonia taken from the APi and Seachem tests may have been correct.

 

Lyss

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Thanks fro the feedback @Lyss. Its somewhat comforting to know other have had the same trouble and managed to come out the other side successfully!
On the bacteria, I would def only add Dr Tim's if that's what you started with. I learned a very hard lesson on my FW tank a while back when I cycled with Fritz and then later added some Stability after a water change -- adding the stability 100% crashed my cycle. But the thing is, if your bacteria really are dying off I think you'd see cloudy water, and that's what happened to my FW tank.

You should be just fine w/the addition of the rocks from your other tank now. When I upgraded my FW tank I only cycled w/a few rocks and some media from the old one, while I kept the old one running w/the fish in it.
 

Andynz2000

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On the bacteria, I would def only add Dr Tim's if that's what you started with. I learned a very hard lesson on my FW tank a while back when I cycled with Fritz and then later added some Stability after a water change -- adding the stability 100% crashed my cycle. But the thing is, if your bacteria really are dying off I think you'd see cloudy water, and that's what happened to my FW tank.

You should be just fine w/the addition of the rocks from your other tank now. When I upgraded my FW tank I only cycled w/a few rocks and some media from the old one, while I kept the old one running w/the fish in it.
How did adding stability crash your cycle? I initially dozed stability with ammonia and after two weeks there was no change so I added DR tims bacteria and started to see nitrites and nitrates together after a week
 

Lyss

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How did adding stability crash your cycle? I initially dozed stability with ammonia and after two weeks there was no change so I added DR tims bacteria and started to see nitrites and nitrates together after a week
Different, competing bacteria strains that killed each other off. My understanding is that may not always be the case but CAN be the case, so I'm careful w/bacteria-in-a-bottle products now. I use PNS ProBio in both my FW and SW aquariums weekly, and only ever supplement w/the same nitrifying bottled bac I used to cycle -- I only do that if I do a heavy gravel vac or clean out the sump hardcore, or something like that during a routine water change, it's not like I'm always adding it into my tank or anything.
 

Andynz2000

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Different, competing bacteria strains that killed each other off. My understanding is that may not always be the case but CAN be the case, so I'm careful w/bacteria-in-a-bottle products now. I use PNS ProBio in both my FW and SW aquariums weekly, and only ever supplement w/the same nitrifying bottled bac I used to cycle -- I only do that if I do a heavy gravel vac or clean out the sump hardcore, or something like that during a routine water change, it's not like I'm always adding it into my tank or anything.
Thanks for the quick reply!
 

Porpoise Hork

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Hi everyone-

I'm fairly new to the hobby and have had an Evo 13.5 for about 9-10months and decided it was time for an upgrade.

My new tank is a Waterbox 50.3 AIO and I started the fishless cycle about 4 weeks ago (CaribSea Dry Sand & LifeRock). I went the route of Dr. Tim's One and Only, First Defense and Ammonium drops and watched his cycling video on YouTube, read all of the blogs, did a ton of research, THEN I made the worse Rookie mistake of overdosing Ammonium (SOOO KICKING MYSELF RIGHT NOW).

1 week ago (week 3) my Ammonia was dropping steady, my Nitrite and Nitrate were off the chart. Knowing my Nitrite/Nitrate were going to continue climbing, I did a 30% water change which brought my Ammonia down to about 1ppm, and after about 24hrs the Ammonia dropped to 0, BUT the Nitrite/Nitrate were still off the chart (as expected).

4 days ago, I did another 30% water change and my Nitrite/Nitrate were still off the chart.

2 days ago, I did a 75% water change this time with Prime and my Nitrite are still very high (dark purple), but my Nitrate dropped to about 25ppm.

The fact that I have Nitrite and Nitrate proves that the nitrifying bacteria present, although the bacteria that converts Nitrite to Nitrate are likely not developed enough to consume all that Nitrite, HOWEVER I've also read that very high Nitrite could stall them from developing (???)

At this point, I don't know what to do, I could do another massive water change or do I just wait it out?? I'm reluctant to add any ammonia as I'm sure that will just compound the Nitrite/Nitrate issue. BUT, with no Ammonia in the tank, won't the Nitrifying bacteria deplete?? Double edge sword...

PS. I have a bottle of FritzZyme 9 Nitrifying Bacteria, but wasn't sure if I should add it because 1) During initial cycle I used Dr. Tim's One and Only and reason number 2) Nitrifying Bacteria need Ammonia first and I really don't want to add any more given the high Nitrite/Nitrate situation.

Any feedback or advise would be GREATLY APPRECIATED.

I had a nearly identical issue when I setup my 75g. It hung on the nitrite stage for close to 3 weeks and wouldn't budge. I tried waiting it out, water changes, etc. and nothing worked. I asked my LFS about it and he suggested Prime and then Seachem Stability and dose daily for a week. Sure enough by day 4 of dosing Stability the nitrites finally started to fall. By day 7 of Stability dosing nitrites were nearly 0 from off the scale. I researched why he suggested Prime as well and found a posting that according to Seachem Prime bonds to ammonia and nitrite and when bound it allows the nitrifying bacterial to consume it more easily than in it's unbound state.
 

brandon429

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It's cheaper and more effective to ignore it though, for the entirety of the cycle. Cycling works much better that way, reefers become used to resolved and directed action up front vs fear and hesitancy, and retail dependency. This doesn't seem to matter much, but you'd be amazed to know how that contributed to reef loss during invasion challenges, fish disease challenges etc
 

Lyss

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I mean, I generally agree with Brandon on the above. We tend to freak out and spend money and pour stuff in the tank, but if you just wait it out, the bacteria will catch up. If you don't have visible mass bacteria die-off there's usually not a need to worry. I was also under the impression that Prime during a fishless cycle was not the best idea b/c it would slow it down and mess with test readings.

You really only need one bottle/application of whatever you use if you use bottled bac -- pouring more in endlessly isn't going to speed things up, and if you started with one brand and then start pouring in a different one that may have different strains of bac, they'll just compete and kill each other -- worst case kill the cycle, better case just slow things down further.

Mine took longer than I'd wanted b/c of the initial ammonia overdose, and there was a point when I just felt like it would never be cycled, but waiting paid off and it did cycle. It just sucks/feels scary to wait and let it work itself out.
 

brandon429

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Dryza
when you add fish to that prep tank, they'll all work just fine its set and ready for carry.
 
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dryza

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Hello @brandon429 - Excuse the delayed response.. If you recall the Seneye online dashboard for historical datapoint was hung and after speaking with Seneye support it appeared to be related a datacenter issue in Ireland. Their support is actually REALLY good and responsive. They were able to get the issue resolved within a few hours and the data reindexed. The realtime data was always fine, it was just the historical graphs.

Anyhow, I got tied up with work and only this morning had a chance to move the Seneye sensor to my established tank and grab the readings you requested. The sensor was moved to my established tank around 8:50AM as depicted below.

NOTE: Per everyone's advise, I went ahead and added a few fish ignoring the elevated nitrite and I'm happy to say it's been a few weeks and they're doing great (knock on wood).. As of last week the Nitrite suddenly dropped overnight and is at 0 at the moment. Ammonia/NH3 fluctuates with feedings, but does drop back down fairly quickly.. Worth noting, I've never seen the Seneye drop to 0 for NH3, the lowest it reads is 0.001 as you can see even with my established tank.

1636555408230.png
 

brandon429

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Dryza what a neat final tie in for your cycle can you update us with a full tank picture / the water clarity after several days feeding and bioload carry factored against your wait time, surface area ratios and fine seneye work will really present a clear picture for updated cycling works


Cell you called this one strong right from the get go.
 
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dryza

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I should also note that the due the way Seneye calculates NH3 & NH4, it's highly sensitive, so anything <0.004 for Ammonia/NH3 doesn't even appear on other standard tests (for example API).
 
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dryza

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Dryza what a neat final tie in for your cycle can you update us with a full tank picture / the water clarity after several days feeding and bioload carry factored against your wait time, surface area ratios and fine seneye work will really present a clear picture for updated cycling works


Cell you called this one strong right from the get go.

Absolutely- I'll post some actual graphs that depict the entire cycle process to include my rookie goof-up of overdosing Ammonium chloride as I'm sure MANY others have done the same... ;)
 

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