Cycling trouble: Can't seem to get Ammonia to spike

[EEE1986]

I purchased a Fluval Evo 13.5 gallon tank from my LFS and set it up 8 days ago with live rock, live sand, included filtration media + added Seachem Matrix (All provided by my LFS). The employees also sent me home with Seachem stability and I believe told me to dose it every 2-3 days. I have been following the instructions on the bottle and adding the appropriate amount everyday for 7 days. I considered ghost feeding but figured I wouldn't have any troubles with providing ammonia as the live rock came equipped with the occasional creepy worm creature, one of which I ripped in half leaving part of it's body within the rock to decay. Despite all this, my ammonia has not increased more than 0.25ppm and there has been zero conversion to nitrites or nitrates. Currently my parameters are at:

Temp 78-80
Salinitiy 1.021
pH 7.8
Ammonia 0.25 ppm
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 0

I'm at a loss for what i should do. Should I be dosing ammonia at this point, adding a fish or just continuing to be patient and let nature take it course?

 

[MnFish1]

I purchased a Fluval Evo 13.5 gallon tank from my LFS and set it up 8 days ago with live rock, live sand, included filtration media + added Seachem Matrix (All provided by my LFS). The employees also sent me home with Seachem stability and I believe told me to dose it every 2-3 days. I have been following the instructions on the bottle and adding the appropriate amount everyday for 7 days. I considered ghost feeding but figured I wouldn't have any troubles with providing ammonia as the live rock came equipped with the occasional creepy worm creature, one of which I ripped in half leaving part of it's body within the rock to decay. Despite all this, my ammonia has not increased more than 0.25ppm and there has been zero conversion to nitrites or nitrates. Currently my parameters are at:

Temp 78-80
Salinitiy 1.021
pH 7.8
Ammonia 0.25 ppm
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 0

I'm at a loss for what i should do. Should I be dosing ammonia at this point, adding a fish or just continuing to be patient and let nature take it course?

There is no reason for your ammonia to 'spike'. You can probably add fish. (not a lot - a couple small ones - or a clown for example). Nitrite is not an issue - there is no reason to worry about nitrate - since you're not actually feeding the tank. If you read the directions on the products you're using - it says ' you can add fish on day 1' - correct me if I'm wrong - I haven't looked at the label for a while - and I dont want to steer you incorrectly. The live rock, sand and stability - mean you should have enough to follow the instructions. Curious what test are you using - and can you post a picture of the results?

 

[EEE1986]

Thanks for the response. I am using the API saltwater master test kit. I unfortunately don’t have a pic of my latest results but can attach one the next time I run it.

 

[MnFish1]

Thanks for the response. I am using the API saltwater master test kit. I unfortunately don’t have a pic of my latest results but can attach one the next time I run it.

OK - Realize that people often have problems reading '0' on ammonia API test kits.

 

[EEE1986]

There is no reason for your ammonia to 'spike'. You can probably add fish. (not a lot - a couple small ones - or a clown for example). Nitrite is not an issue - there is no reason to worry about nitrate - since you're not actually feeding the tank. If you read the directions on the products you're using - it says ' you can add fish on day 1' - correct me if I'm wrong - I haven't looked at the label for a while - and I dont want to steer you incorrectly. The live rock, sand and stability - mean you should have enough to follow the instructions. Curious what test are you using - and can you post a picture of the resu

 

[EEE1986]

I can definitely see why people get so confused with it. Here’s this mornings test. Depending on the lighting and time elapsed after adding solution #2 it read anywhere between 0 and 0.5.

 

[MnFish1]

I can definitely see why people get so confused with it. Here’s this mornings test. Depending on the lighting and time elapsed after adding solution #2 it read anywhere between 0 and 0.5.

FYI - the directions from Seachem state that the reading is the closest color to the one on the chart - which means if the color is mostly 'yellow' (0), but there is a tinge of green, the value read is '0' not 0.25. Likewise, if the color is closer to 0.25 - its read 0.25 not 0.125, etc. In your picture - which is hard to judge the color - I would say your color is in the middle or a little on the yellow side - which signifies a reading of '0'. However - it may be the lighting or my eyes tricking me. In any case, it's either 0 or 0.25. (though 0.25 is not harmful, '0' would be better)

 

[GARRIGA]

I'd focus on nitrates which at the moment are zero. Instead of ghost feeding. Perhaps add a small amount of ammonium chloride to provide 0.5ppm then take another set of reading.

Although nitrites are inconsequential in marine tanks I'd still want to see that progression as well as ensuring it doesn't go above 5ppm as that will affect nitrifying bacteria.

BTW, I've found that API ammonia test strips to be accurate based on a sample reference I created as well as seeing ammonia reading during cycle and zero once cycle was complete. Don't trust API reagent for ammonia based on other's noting it often shows values when none exist.

Technically, that live rock should get you cycled quickly although one needs to know exactly what was sold as live rock. Was it base rock soaked in a system or actual porous rock from the ocean loaded with bacteria. Latter rather hard to find these days yet former seems to be at every LFS and then it matters how long that base soaked and how conditions were kept such as frequent dosing of ammonia to keep the bacteria populating.

 

[SliceGolfer]

can you share a pic of the rock and tank?

 

[EEE1986]

I'd focus on nitrates which at the moment are zero. Instead of ghost feeding. Perhaps add a small amount of ammonium chloride to provide 0.5ppm then take another set of reading.

Although nitrites are inconsequential in marine tanks I'd still want to see that progression as well as ensuring it doesn't go above 5ppm as that will affect nitrifying bacteria.

BTW, I've found that API ammonia test strips to be accurate based on a sample reference I created as well as seeing ammonia reading during cycle and zero once cycle was complete. Don't trust API reagent for ammonia based on other's noting it often shows values when none exist.

Technically, that live rock should get you cycled quickly although one needs to know exactly what was sold as live rock. Was it base rock soaked in a system or actual porous rock from the ocean loaded with bacteria. Latter rather hard to find these days yet former seems to be at every LFS and then it matters how long that base soaked and how conditions were kept such as frequent dosing of ammonia to keep the bacteria populating.

Thanks for the tip and the youtube video. I will be watching that shortly. I just went to Petco today to purchase a separate ammonia test from another brand (They had a variety when I was there last week) but sadly they only had API and Imagitarium products. I wound up purchasing an Imagitarium test strip and it read out as 0. The lowest reading on there was 0.5 though so I guess it's still possible that my ammonia is at 0.25. The rock I purchased appears to be similar in appearance to the husks of dead coral one may encounter when walking on the beach. They were kept in a large vat of saltwater. I have attached a photo of my tank currently. I did not place the rock back in saltwater until later that evening and there were a few hours the other day when I took them out of the tank to attempt some aquascaping. I would hope the few hours the rock spent outside the tank did not kill off the bacteria. I actually had the same thought process as you about ammonia supplementation and purchased some ammonium chloride online but it looks like it will be a while before it gets to me. When talking to the employee at my LFS they told me to not even worry about ammonia levels for the next month and then after a month of adding Stability every few days I can add some CUC. 2-3 weeks after that I can add fish. I suppose this method works too but I prefer to actually see the cycle occur before my eyes and be more precise about knowing when my tank is ready.

 

[EEE1986]

can you share a pic of the rock and tank?

Just attached in my reply to GARRIGA

 

[GARRIGA]

Thanks for the tip and the youtube video. I will be watching that shortly. I just went to Petco today to purchase a separate ammonia test from another brand (They had a variety when I was there last week) but sadly they only had API and Imagitarium products. I wound up purchasing an Imagitarium test strip and it read out as 0. The lowest reading on there was 0.5 though so I guess it's still possible that my ammonia is at 0.25. The rock I purchased appears to be similar in appearance to the husks of dead coral one may encounter when walking on the beach. They were kept in a large vat of saltwater. I have attached a photo of my tank currently. I did not place the rock back in saltwater until later that evening and there were a few hours the other day when I took them out of the tank to attempt some aquascaping. I would hope the few hours the rock spent outside the tank did not kill off the bacteria. I actually had the same thought process as you about ammonia supplementation and purchased some ammonium chloride online but it looks like it will be a while before it gets to me. When talking to the employee at my LFS they told me to not even worry about ammonia levels for the next month and then after a month of adding Stability every few days I can add some CUC. 2-3 weeks after that I can add fish. I suppose this method works too but I prefer to actually see the cycle occur before my eyes and be more precise about knowing when my tank is ready.

There's life on that rock so seems it's been soaking a while and your out of water likely didn't affect it. Could be you're already cycled assuming you started with cycled rock. Only way I know to test that is as mention with adding an ammonia source whether fish or as I suggested.

If you can't trust the ammonia test kit then best assurance that it is cycled is presence of nitrates. Doesn't ensure you are done but guarantees nitrification in progress.

Since it doesn't seem you are in a hurry to add fish then LFS right in not worrying but I wouldn't have suggested Stability. I've used that and spoken to Seachem about it and although it supposedly has both nitrifiers and denitrifiers I don't think it's as potent as One and Only and Bio Spiro. I used it to add diversity. Let me go find the link where one of our trusted residents went through painstaking tests to conclude what bacteria in the bottle best. I'll cut to the end. Fritz Turbo the best. The other two I mentioned took longer but quick enough. Don't recall if Stability was tested or the results.

Although at this point if you have cycled rock then adding a bottle was unnecessary. Food however is. Ammonium chloride or other source work. Randy has a thread on different ammonia sources for feeding corals and one of those might also work better. My approach is to stress test any cycle to get the bacterial population to a point where I have the option to load it with all fish at once as that might be a need depending where and when I find what I need and has gone through lengthy observation.

Not all Cycling Bacteria are created equal. Who's who, and what do they need?

My hypothesis is that there are very different types of Bacteria that are being used to "cycle" tanks to prevent ammonia accumulation, and it's not entirely clear which products contain which group, and it's also poorly understood what the requirements are for one of these groups to do their...

www.reef2reef.com

DIY Ammonia dosing for low nitrate systems

Some reef aquaria have chronic low nitrogen availability. One indicator is very low nitrate. Nitrate dosing is a fine remedy, but it is possible that ammonia dosing may be more beneficial for some organisms since ammonia can be energetically easier to assimilate than is nitrate. For this...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[EEE1986]

There's life on that rock so seems it's been soaking a while and your out of water likely didn't affect it. Could be you're already cycled assuming you started with cycled rock. Only way I know to test that is as mention with adding an ammonia source whether fish or as I suggested.

If you can't trust the ammonia test kit then best assurance that it is cycled is presence of nitrates. Doesn't ensure you are done but guarantees nitrification in progress.

Since it doesn't seem you are in a hurry to add fish then LFS right in not worrying but I wouldn't have suggested Stability. I've used that and spoken to Seachem about it and although it supposedly has both nitrifiers and denitrifiers I don't think it's as potent as One and Only and Bio Spiro. I used it to add diversity. Let me go find the link where one of our trusted residents went through painstaking tests to conclude what bacteria in the bottle best. I'll cut to the end. Fritz Turbo the best. The other two I mentioned took longer but quick enough. Don't recall if Stability was tested or the results.

Although at this point if you have cycled rock then adding a bottle was unnecessary. Food however is. Ammonium chloride or other source work. Randy has a thread on different ammonia sources for feeding corals and one of those might also work better. My approach is to stress test any cycle to get the bacterial population to a point where I have the option to load it with all fish at once as that might be a need depending where and when I find what I need and has gone through lengthy observation.

Not all Cycling Bacteria are created equal. Who's who, and what do they need?

My hypothesis is that there are very different types of Bacteria that are being used to "cycle" tanks to prevent ammonia accumulation, and it's not entirely clear which products contain which group, and it's also poorly understood what the requirements are for one of these groups to do their...

www.reef2reef.com

DIY Ammonia dosing for low nitrate systems

Some reef aquaria have chronic low nitrogen availability. One indicator is very low nitrate. Nitrate dosing is a fine remedy, but it is possible that ammonia dosing may be more beneficial for some organisms since ammonia can be energetically easier to assimilate than is nitrate. For this...

www.reef2reef.com

Thank you so much for all the great info. I will keep you posted on outcome

 

[mboley]

Go to Dr. Tim's website. There are detailed day-to-day instructions on how to fish-less cycle. The API ammonia and Nitrite tests are fine for cycling purposes.

 

[EEE1986]

There's life on that rock so seems it's been soaking a while and your out of water likely didn't affect it. Could be you're already cycled assuming you started with cycled rock. Only way I know to test that is as mention with adding an ammonia source whether fish or as I suggested.

If you can't trust the ammonia test kit then best assurance that it is cycled is presence of nitrates. Doesn't ensure you are done but guarantees nitrification in progress.

Since it doesn't seem you are in a hurry to add fish then LFS right in not worrying but I wouldn't have suggested Stability. I've used that and spoken to Seachem about it and although it supposedly has both nitrifiers and denitrifiers I don't think it's as potent as One and Only and Bio Spiro. I used it to add diversity. Let me go find the link where one of our trusted residents went through painstaking tests to conclude what bacteria in the bottle best. I'll cut to the end. Fritz Turbo the best. The other two I mentioned took longer but quick enough. Don't recall if Stability was tested or the results.

Although at this point if you have cycled rock then adding a bottle was unnecessary. Food however is. Ammonium chloride or other source work. Randy has a thread on different ammonia sources for feeding corals and one of those might also work better. My approach is to stress test any cycle to get the bacterial population to a point where I have the option to load it with all fish at once as that might be a need depending where and when I find what I need and has gone through lengthy observation.

Not all Cycling Bacteria are created equal. Who's who, and what do they need?

My hypothesis is that there are very different types of Bacteria that are being used to "cycle" tanks to prevent ammonia accumulation, and it's not entirely clear which products contain which group, and it's also poorly understood what the requirements are for one of these groups to do their...

www.reef2reef.com

DIY Ammonia dosing for low nitrate systems

Some reef aquaria have chronic low nitrogen availability. One indicator is very low nitrate. Nitrate dosing is a fine remedy, but it is possible that ammonia dosing may be more beneficial for some organisms since ammonia can be energetically easier to assimilate than is nitrate. For this...

www.reef2reef.com

Over the past week there has been a buildup of a powdery brown substance on the sand which at first I thought was debris from the live rock but now I’m thinking may be diatoms (see attached photo). If these are in fact diatoms, would this confirm that my tank is cycled and that my nitrates are not showing up because they are being used up to fuel the diatom growth?

 

[GARRIGA]

Over the past week there has been a buildup of a powdery brown substance on the sand which at first I thought was debris from the live rock but now I’m thinking may be diatoms (see attached photo). If these are in fact diatoms, would this confirm that my tank is cycled and that my nitrates are not showing up because they are being used up to fuel the diatom growth?

Only way to remove nitrates is plants or denitrification other than water changes. Don't know what diatoms consume other than silicate. Doesn't appear your tank is cycled.

Consider grabbing a bottle of Fritz Turbo 900 from a refrigerated source less than six months old although supposedly valid for a year, if I recall correctly. Otherwise One and Only and Bio-Spira will take a little while longer but got my ammonia solved within 4 days and nitrites within 9 days following the video Dr Tim's put out. Solved nitrates later with NoPox.

Seachem has a history of proclaiming that which it doesn't actually solve. Search Prime on this site for an example. Plus just because one works at an LFS doesn't guarantee practical knowledge and might just be selling product they've been told works. Not saying stability failed but I've only used it to diversify bacterial strains for which no clue if that even helped. I've never started a cycle with that alone.