Cycling with Dr.Tim’s one and only

[brandon429]

Coxey am curious of a few things based on these posts

Please help me solve my nitrite mystery!

OK, this is my first saltwater aquarium. I migrated over from 8 years or so of freshwater and I've never encountered this issue before. I'm going to give a timeline so it's easier to follow: Mar 9th: Cycle started with dead grocery store shrimp. Mar 9th - 20th: Ammonia spiked and went to...

www.reef2reef.com

Randy is it ok to Cycle tanks testing only for Ammonia?

The question has come up in a different thread. More specifically if we set up a tank using small measured feedings with cured rock and rubble and a few cuc and Nitrates only register at 2ppm at highest through the entire process of Cycling ammonia back to 0 readings with Api and ammonia is...

www.reef2reef.com

nitrite has no basis in reef tank cycling


youve seen myriad posts on the matter, how do you choose which info to relay? Is it a random choice, or have you practiced experiments or conducted personal findings to make the distinction on which info you relay— if so those findings could be good posts in the experiments forum



nitrite measure and reaction is an ongoing evolution in reefing, was curious how you’ve selected your side and advice stance. I find 100% of the time people who advise cycles regarding nitrite compliance do it to the full exclusion of disease prep focus for new reefers, even if they do practice quarantine themselves


that trend is odd, it’s a 100% exclusion rate of what matters and an 100% inclusion rate of what does not matter, going off trends we see and chemistry articles available on the subject.


I watch for cycle advice trending just to see how patterns work out online and for a month across posts eaudecharque hasnt been coached on disease preps at all. This omission habit by coaches seems to be the total driving energy behind daily action in the disease forum, plus these same coaches accept api nitrite reads as 100% infallible

does that make sense for api reputation? Literally every single nitrite reading posted is accurate and reliable, without variance?

 

[Coxey81]

Coxey am curious of a few things based on these posts

Please help me solve my nitrite mystery!

OK, this is my first saltwater aquarium. I migrated over from 8 years or so of freshwater and I've never encountered this issue before. I'm going to give a timeline so it's easier to follow: Mar 9th: Cycle started with dead grocery store shrimp. Mar 9th - 20th: Ammonia spiked and went to...

www.reef2reef.com

Randy is it ok to Cycle tanks testing only for Ammonia?

The question has come up in a different thread. More specifically if we set up a tank using small measured feedings with cured rock and rubble and a few cuc and Nitrates only register at 2ppm at highest through the entire process of Cycling ammonia back to 0 readings with Api and ammonia is...

www.reef2reef.com

nitrite has no basis in reef tank cycling


youve seen myriad posts on the matter, how do you choose which info to relay? Is it a random choice, or have you practiced experiments or conducted personal findings to make the distinction on which info you relay— if so those findings could be good posts in the experiments forum



nitrite measure and reaction is an ongoing evolution in reefing, was curious how you’ve selected your side and advice stance. I find 100% of the time people who advise cycles regarding nitrite compliance do it to the full exclusion of disease prep focus for new reefers, even if they do practice quarantine themselves


that trend is odd, it’s a 100% exclusion rate of what matters and an 100% inclusion rate of what does not matter, going off trends we see and chemistry articles available on the subject.


I watch for cycle advice trending just to see how patterns work out online and for a month across posts eaudecharque hasnt been coached on disease preps at all. This omission habit by coaches seems to be the total driving energy behind daily action in the disease forum, plus these same coaches accept api nitrite reads as 100% infallible

does that make sense for api reputation? Literally every single nitrite reading posted is accurate and reliable, without variance?

Fishless Cycling | DrTim's Aquatics

The term "fishless cycling" refers to the process of establishing the nitrifying bacteria in a newly set-up aquarium without using fish which are used in the traditional cycling method. The problem associated with using fish in the cycling period is that normally, when establishing the...

www.drtimsaquatics.com

Im following instructions.

 

[brandon429]

The wait time dynamics stated on prior page is accepted as the common method, ammonia control comes before nitrite control / even the cycling charts show that as well agreed

the pattern I’m noticing is how cyclers would never be advised to add animals when ammonia is high (again, all api readings accepted without challenge, all the time) because that would harm the fish

somehow we’ve been giving them the inference that awaiting both nitrite and ammonia compliance means the fish will survive and we can clearly see in pattern from the disease forum they don’t if preps are skipped.

I’m personally curious why cycle umpires would omit the preps needed to keep fish alive and make it seem like they’ll be fine if we just wait for nitrite control and ammonia control, cycle advisors are not responding to the very source of all loss in the first few months documented on the site-no fish are lost during the cycle it’s always a few months after.

I also realize the directions from Dr. Tim directly advise what you stated so it’s obviously not a bad info relay. it seems if we wait for retailers to provide us permission to discuss emerging patterns we will be well behind the loss curve once that’s allowed. And for decades, the retailers have benefitted wonderfully in their nitrite advice as people repeatedly buy new bottles of bacteria to ‘unstick’ the problem nitrite reading, thats very convenient.


Randys article about nitrite neutrality is fifteen years old, we’ve been ignoring basic chemistry advice and instead being led by retailers for nearly two decades now. The retailers have overrode Randy’s advice and they’re profiting from that, forum peers help them do it even without being paid. All this is a fascinating trend to study.


here’s an example of changing trends in cycle umpiring

retailers don’t get extra pay when peers respond to updated trending using Randy’s article, and disease preps get the proper mention

Stalled Nitrogen Cycle - Advice?

Hi everyone, I'm new to the hobby. I've been trying to read up on stalled nitrogen cycles but my situation seems to be different from the trouble that most people have. I set up a 20 gallon tank about 3 weeks ago. My goal is to start with a pair of clown fish and eventually add some corals...

www.reef2reef.com

this mode of cycle advise is literally the best most cutting edge above the loss curve response option.

The way it won’t be absorbed and relayed by 99% of cycle advisors is fascinating. Somehow they’re trained to dig in heels, permanently, responding to zero new trending in test accuracy / disease / or basic cycling chemistry.

 

[Coxey81]

The wait time dynamics stated on prior page is accepted as the common method, ammonia control comes before nitrite control / even the cycling charts show that as well agreed

the pattern I’m noticing is how cyclers would never be advised to add animals when ammonia is high (again, all api readings accepted without challenge, all the time) because that would harm the fish

somehow we’ve been giving them the inference that awaiting both nitrite and ammonia compliance means the fish will survive and we can clearly see in pattern from the disease forum they don’t if preps are skipped.

I’m personally curious why cycle umpires would omit the preps needed to keep fish alive and make it seem like they’ll be fine if we just wait for nitrite control and ammonia control, cycle advisors are not responding to the very source of all loss in the first few months documented on the site-no fish are lost during the cycle it’s always a few months after.

I also realize the directions from Dr. Tim directly advise what you stated so it’s obviously not a bad info relay. it seems if we wait for retailers to provide us permission to discuss emerging patterns we will be well behind the loss curve once that’s allowed. And for decades, the retailers have benefitted wonderfully in their nitrite advice as people repeatedly buy new bottles of bacteria to ‘unstick’ the problem nitrite reading, thats very convenient.


Randys article about nitrite neutrality is fifteen years old, we’ve been ignoring basic chemistry advice and instead being led by retailers for nearly two decades now. The retailers have overrode Randy’s advice and they’re profiting from that, forum peers help them do it even without being paid. All this is a fascinating trend to study.

The nitrogen cycle includes nitrites being converted to nitrates.

If you want to argue that nitrites aren't dangerous in saltwater and shouldn't be included in considering if a saltwater tank has completed the nitrogen cycle, then I suggest you stop arguing with me, get a degree in marine biology, conduct some real research, and publish some papers.

 

[Garf]

The nitrogen cycle includes nitrites being converted to nitrates.

If you want to argue that nitrites aren't dangerous in saltwater and shouldn't be included in considering if a saltwater tank has completed the nitrogen cycle, then I suggest you stop arguing with me, get a degree in marine biology, conduct some real research, and publish some papers.

Just making saltwater safe, in the short term is certainly nowhere near a cycle, it needs a different term. Ammonia Safe System, or summit.

 

[brandon429]

EMERGENCY - 76 Day Fallow but expecting fish

The forum is trying to help you, but you seem to want to ignore sound advice. Please take a step back, think about everything that was posted here and take the sound advise and cancel your order. We all wish you the best of luck, but you need to really to think this through.

www.reef2reef.com

a few points from that thread:

elements of predictability exist from combing posts in the disease forum and then relating them to cycling thread work in the new tanks forum


critical loss timing fully independent to cycling technique is shown


see how we as a group train cyclers for fish safety but in reality we directly withhold actual fish safety? in my opinion this is why nitrite tracking simply doesn’t matter. If someone actually begins cycling threads and then sees them through to stocking, and then stays in touch via chat over the next year, standout patterns become apparent ahead of the permission curve.


the simple fact remains the highest loss rates happen in the first eight months across tanks and we can verify that by reading the fish disease forum and directly asking folks for tank age, or by just selecting ‘find all posts’ from a help thread offer and finding the age of the tank ourselves. If you chart this activity and go out to ten pages in the disease forum you’ll see a standout pattern for the eight month thing. Nitrite coaching one way or another wouldn’t be such a robbing to the new cyclers if we’d all just take time to incorporate disease preps vs dig in heels across posts, any number of years.


we cannot paint nitrite as a variable that matters at all, so the time we spend writing paragraphs on it is exclusive to the paragraphs we could be writing that actually line up with work posts

 

[Coxey81]

EMERGENCY - 76 Day Fallow but expecting fish

The forum is trying to help you, but you seem to want to ignore sound advice. Please take a step back, think about everything that was posted here and take the sound advise and cancel your order. We all wish you the best of luck, but you need to really to think this through.

www.reef2reef.com

a few points from that thread:

elements of predictability exist from combing posts in the disease forum and then relating them to cycling thread work in the new tanks forum


critical loss timing fully independent to cycling technique is shown


see how we as a group train cyclers for fish safety but in reality we directly withhold actual fish safety? in my opinion this is why nitrite tracking simply doesn’t matter. If someone actually begins cycling threads and then sees them through to stocking, and then stays in touch via chat over the next year, standout patterns become apparent ahead of the permission curve.


the simple fact remains the highest loss rates happen in the first eight months across tanks and we can verify that by reading the fish disease forum and directly asking folks for tank age, or by just selecting ‘find all posts’ from a help thread offer and finding the age of the tank ourselves. If you chart this activity and go out to ten pages in the disease forum you’ll see a standout pattern for the eight month thing. Nitrite coaching one way or another wouldn’t be such a robbing to the new cyclers if we’d all just take time to incorporate disease preps vs dig in heels across posts, any number of years.


we cannot paint nitrite as a variable that matters at all, so the time we spend writing paragraphs on it is exclusive to the paragraphs we could be writing that actually line up with work posts

I can do whatever I want. It's my advice.

When it comes to cycling, I prefer to help people follow the instructions they are trying to follow in the first place. If you want to tell them something different. Go for it.

But I'm not going to go against the instructions they are reading in this case.

Now kindly... bugger off.

 

[Coxey81]

@Coxey81 thanks for the recommendations. My ammonia ended up going down at day 11 of the cycle and been at zero since. However, my nitrites are at 1 (that's the max my Red Sea kit can report).

I reached out to Dr Tim's support and they suggested to do a 25% water change to help with the high nitrites. I finished the water change a few hours ago and tested for nitrites and nitrates and to my surprise I still got 1 and nitrates at 20. I'm puzzled and disappointed with the results I will test again tomorrow, but I was expecting to see an immediate reduction in nitrites after the 25% water change. Any idea on why nitrites did not go down?

Also, your nitrites did go down with your water change. It's just that you are maxed on your red sea test kit. You were mostly likely reading above 1 when you tested the first time.

 

[ReefingIsMyTherapy]

Also, your nitrites did go down with your water change. It's just that you are maxed on your red sea test kit. You were mostly likely reading above 1 when you tested the first time.

@Coxey81 That makes sense. I'm seriously considering buying an API test just to see how bad my nitrites are. I know that those kits are not known to be super accurate, but AFAIK the kit can measure up to 5ppm for nitrites.

I tested once again and nitrites are still at 1. I stumbled upon another thread when the OP reported a similar problem and it's my understanding that he went with the microbacter7 route to get things moving. Any advice or comments with using microbacter 7 for seemingly "stalled" cycles?

@brandon429 I really appreciate all the help and feedback. I just started this journey a few months ago and learning by the day. One of the things I learned almost from day one was that I needed a QT tank and I believe I mentioned on a previous post that I did set up one. It's been running for more than 2 months. I have 2 clownfish which so far have been doing great. My plan is to always put fish in the QT tank for observation. I may/may not add medication even when there are no signs of illness, but I'm still debating about it.

 

[brandon429]

Well said. just like reef tanks range in high quality to low quality I’m reading about potential damages and stress from common quarantine tanks that are barren, white lighting like a scary hospital, and underfed. Contrast that to dim lighting, uses clay pots and or earth tone items, river stones, hiding spots, nothing white, fake plants and muted lighting and high quality feed (all this scooped up from Pauls posts, and Tamberav’s relay of them)

high quality feed comes from a seafood market not a pet store

search out Tamberav’s posts on great quarantine setups. At least this helps to get the research flowing and I’ve also learned from reading their posts not everyone has to dump meds into the quarantine tank, they can just be observational holding spots as well.


I liked above where Garf mentioned ammonia control peak/ summit

that is indeed the point bioload can be carried in a new start reef tank, however one wants to define that condition. If I was pressed to define that ability I’d state following the timelines from a basic cycling chart will always work in bottle bac cycles. They are set beyond the time it takes for all the bottled bac we can choose from to implant onto surfaces, so inherent ammonia control will be earned by the timelines we see on the charts. And if someone does want to care about nitrite, that’s charted too.


the reliability of a common cycling chart from any library book on the matter or from any website will beat the accuracy of any non digital test kit when it comes to discerning safe bioload carry dates, notes from the field of cycling.

 

[brandon429]

see how much more information becomes of cycling focus threads where there isn't a nitrite anchor weighing it all down, nitrite is the biggest distraction in all of reefing not just because of Randy's chemistry teachings on it but as I'm seeing in countless cycle posts and updates it's the ability for hyperfocus on that param to literally erase all other efforts to expand horizons. because its neutral, in display cycling, we can simply unfactor it/never own a nitrite kit/ and put focus into all these maximizations above.


I always wait to see if nitrite-fixated cycle umpires will move beyond that stumble, and I must keep waiting apparently. I've literally never seen one iota of any of that above discussed from the nitrite detailing crew, their omissions set the hobby back.

 

[Freenow54]

I went by the directions Dr Tim gave in his video (I’ve never used this method to cycle before)
I added the one and only and then according to the video I was to put in one drop of the ammonia solution per gallon, the next day measure nitrite and ammonia add one drop per gallon. I was to do this for 3 days and after the third day I wasn’t to add anything else, just wait.
I’ve still got ammonia and a tiny bit of nitrate. It’s a quarantine tank so there’s nothing in the tank except saltwater. I’m wondering if I should put in a couple small rocks or something? It’s only been 5 days so I’m not that concerned but just curious if I need to do anything else?

The idea is to get rocks to do the process. I have no idea how you are reading nitrites. I started a new tank with recommended 10 pounds of rock per gallon. Used tims but followed a precise procedure it is on this site I believe that I posted it If not Goggle " How to Fishless Cycle a Tank with Ammonia " Don't know the Author. If you cant find it I will post it again. Worked for me 2 months plus to complete. Use PURE Ammonia

 

[Coxey81]

@Coxey81 That makes sense. I'm seriously considering buying an API test just to see how bad my nitrites are. I know that those kits are not known to be super accurate, but AFAIK the kit can measure up to 5ppm for nitrites.

I tested once again and nitrites are still at 1. I stumbloned upon another thread when the OP reported a similar problem and it's my understanding that he went with the microbacter7 route to get things moving. Any advice or comments with using microbacter 7 for seemingly "stalled" cycles?

@brandon429 I really appreciate all the help and feedback. I just started this journey a few months ago and learning by the day. One of the things I learned almost from day one was that I needed a QT tank and I believe I mentioned on a previous post that I did set up one. It's been running for more than 2 months. I have 2 clownfish which so far have been doing great. My plan is to always put fish in the QT tank for observation. I may/may not add medication even when there are no signs of illness, but I'm still debating about it.

I haven't used microbacter 7, but have heard good things. But adding a bottle isn't going to change much at this point.

As long as your nitrates are going up that means your nitrites are going down. It just takes time especially if you OD thr ammonia.

I wouldn't buy a new kit to test nitrites, just wait it out. Patience in this hobby is key.