Dana, when to dose Amino Acids and Vitamins ???

Discussion in 'Aquarium Lighting By Dana Riddle' started by PSXerholic, Feb 5, 2018.

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  1. A. grandis

    A. grandis Valuable Member

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    I think absorption is a continuous process.
    Would be great to find an article on that!
    Grandis.
     

  2. A. grandis

    A. grandis Valuable Member

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    BUT...
    Where is Mr. Riddle?
    ;Wideyed
     
  3. chipmunkofdoom2

    chipmunkofdoom2 Always Making Something R2R Supporter Reef Squad R2R Excellence Award Article Contributor

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    Probably sleeping ;) it's 23:30 in the Eastern Time Zone, where I believe Dana lives.
     
  4. A. grandis

    A. grandis Valuable Member

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    Hehe.
    Grandis.
     
  5. PSXerholic

    PSXerholic Valuable Member R2R Supporter Build Thread Contributor

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    Yes, that's the beauty !!!
    Still a good sized but dormant frag. I'm very careful with that since it's the last piece I have of it after the colony did not make it argh ;-)

    Dosing Vitamins I can see the ORP goes down and recovers 3-4 hours later to it's normal state. Read about long time ago from our Albert Thiel about it and it indeed makes some corals healthier, hence maybe more colorful because of that, at least when I dosed it.

    So, when I dose Selcon or other Vitamins I do see improvement on colors after a few days. However I contribute this effect to the fact that the performance of the skimmer goes down for 5-6 hours after dosing not doing anything other than bubbling around. I guess that no-performing of the skimmer likely is really what improves the colors, lol ;-)

    On AA's I have to say I'm being careful with, since I do experienced that if you have pathogenic bacteria or diseases on Corals which can happen anytime since you can't really see them, the effect of AA is that it fuels bacteria of all kind. So assumption is that with AA you can make a sick coral even more sick. I do recommend not to dose AA while dealing with any of thousand of different type of Cyano or if you see any type of TN in the tank.

    Really looking forward to @Dana Riddle, when to dose Vitamins, and when to dose AA.
    I guess in Ben's case, as far I know, he did mostly the food cocktails with all sorts of nutrition ;-)
     
  6. Dana Riddle

    Dana Riddle Valuable Member Staff Member R2R Supporter Partner Member 2019 Expert Contributor Article Contributor Build Thread Contributor

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    Thanks for letting me sleep ;). As with any supplementation, there are as many opinions as there are products. I'll try to answer the questions, and then to get down to brass tacks.
    If you choose to add AAs, there is some evidence that uptake by corals is higher in low/no light. Here's why: At least some corals can produce all, or most, AAs they require but the products translocated from zooxanthellate are required for AA synthesis. Hence, when zoox are not receiving enough/any light this process slows/stops. It is then that AAs are absorbed. Algae are known to make many vitamins as well. This concept caused a minor stir in the hobby when George Smit published it in FAMA back in the late '80s, but a little thought bears out his position (production of Vitamin C by plants is an obvious example.) I'm not sure of vitamin production by zoox or any other algae commonly kept (Chaeto, Caulerpa, etc.) but I will make an assumption that vitamin absorption follows the lines of AAs.
    As for coloration, the fluorescent proteins are chains of amino acids about 250-300 in length. Of these, 3 (yes 3!) make up the fluorophore (the part that glows.) I'd have to look at my notes, but serine is one of them.
    I tested two amino acid supplements a few years ago. One contained ~200 mg/L total nitrogen; the other 10x as much - 2,000 mg/L. Further, bacterial actions degrade these quickly (a few days.) Might not matter, the organic nitrogen is incorporated into the bacteria, and it can be used as a food source.
    See here for the article on amino acids - questions welcomed!
    www.advancedaquarist.com/2015/5/corals
     
  7. Dana Riddle

    Dana Riddle Valuable Member Staff Member R2R Supporter Partner Member 2019 Expert Contributor Article Contributor Build Thread Contributor

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    One other thing - as PSXerholic mentioned, Albert Thiel was a big proponent of dosing vitamin C. He was widely criticized but Craig Bingman came to his defense, citing its antioxidant qualities. I tried to investigate if vitamin C could prevent/delay bleaching but the test for vitamin C is not refined.
    As for further testing of total nitrogen/phosphorus/ etc. - I no longer to have access to a laboratory block heater (required for digestion.) I've considering buying one, but can't justify the $1,000 price tag. Pass the hat. :D
     
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  8. PSXerholic

    PSXerholic Valuable Member R2R Supporter Build Thread Contributor

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    Dana, thx a lot for this detailed explanation.
    So the assumption is then to dose during the daytime ;-)

    Concerning your notes you mentioned only 3 AA are responsible for the "Glow" and Serine is one of them.
    Are the other 2 ones in this list ;-) ?
    Alanine Arginine Aspartic Acid Glutamic Acid Glycine Histidine Isoleucine Leucine Methionine Phenylalanine Proline Serine Threonine Tyrosine Valine Lysine

    Thx again for some more educational clarity of what's going on inside the animals we love so much.
     
  9. PSXerholic

    PSXerholic Valuable Member R2R Supporter Build Thread Contributor

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    And vitamin would be supplemented at night ......
    And on the best dosing time for vitamins..... I guess some testing is needed if daytime or evening gives better results if any.
    I will do nighttime first to use the benefit of better uptake for Vitamins.

    A lot of people in Europe now dosing a Child Vitamin supplement, have to ask what time they dose. I compared this vitamin supplement with Vitamarin, and have to say Vitamarin has more Vitamins and in higher amounts per ml. Going then with Vitamarin for now.
     
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  10. Dana Riddle

    Dana Riddle Valuable Member Staff Member R2R Supporter Partner Member 2019 Expert Contributor Article Contributor Build Thread Contributor

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    Serine - Tyrosine -Glycine. The orientation of these (the fluorophore) determines the type of fluorescence (green, red, none, etc.)
     
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  11. Dana Riddle

    Dana Riddle Valuable Member Staff Member R2R Supporter Partner Member 2019 Expert Contributor Article Contributor Build Thread Contributor

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    Keep us posted. There was a vitamin supplement marketed for reefs some years back, and I was given a bottle of the stuff to try. I asked around and the consensus was that it encouraged nuisance algae to grow. I thought "Well, zoox are an alga too, is the dosage simply too high?" Never got around to testing mainly because I didn't have a chlorophyll meter at the time, and this product is no longer on the market (speaks for itself.) With that said, commercial alga fertilizers (f2 for example) contain B vitamins.
     
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  12. A. grandis

    A. grandis Valuable Member

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    Thanks for the explanations and the article, Dana!
    This is a great topic!!
    Please let us know your notes on skimming when adding amino acids and vitamins.
    Grandis.
     
  13. Dana Riddle

    Dana Riddle Valuable Member Staff Member R2R Supporter Partner Member 2019 Expert Contributor Article Contributor Build Thread Contributor

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    Thanks. I'm assuming at least some amino acids would be removed by skimming (after all it is protein skimming) but I'm not aware of research done on specifics. It would be simple enough to test (spike sterile ASW with amino acids, skim, and do some paper chromatography, determine rf's, perhaps spray with ninhydrin, compare to a control.) I've got the equipment to do it - simple enough on paper, perhaps not in execution, but very time consuming.
     
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  14. A. grandis

    A. grandis Valuable Member

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    Humm... Well, let us know if you find some time test one day.
    Thanks again!
    Grandis.
     
  15. Dana Riddle

    Dana Riddle Valuable Member Staff Member R2R Supporter Partner Member 2019 Expert Contributor Article Contributor Build Thread Contributor

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    I wish the testing would take just one day. ;) I recall when I first started writing for aquarium magazines back in the 80's. I could whip out an article in a couple of hours but that didn't last very long. Later, some in-depth testing/research would be required and the articles would take a day or two... Now, these projects take at least a month or two. A really big project, such as a MACNA presentation, takes up to a year.
     
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  16. A. grandis

    A. grandis Valuable Member

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    I imagine. No worries, take your time and concentrate for the MACNA. I'll try to get there!
    Thanks very much!
    Grandis.
     
  17. BigJohnny

    BigJohnny Valuable Member

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    How'd you get that? He said they absorb amino acids in low/no light, and the advanced aquarist article said at night.
     
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  18. xiaoxiy

    xiaoxiy Active Member

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    @Dana Riddle While the articles cited in your AA article seem to suggest lower DFAA uptake at higher light intensities, Grover et. al 2008 reports that DFAA uptake in Stylophora increased with increasing light intensities.
     
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  19. Dana Riddle

    Dana Riddle Valuable Member Staff Member R2R Supporter Partner Member 2019 Expert Contributor Article Contributor Build Thread Contributor

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    Thanks for the reference! A quick look of the results states AA uptake by the Stylo occurred in light when the concentration exceeded 0.5 micromole/L but did not in a Pocillopora - a vexing observation. As for the light intensity, they used a 4-pi sensor while almost all other researchers use a 2-pi, hence the PPFD measurement includes upwelling light which could be substantial if the substrate is highly reflective. I state this only because I wouldn't want anyone to run with the idea that uptake occurs at a moderate light intensity, one found in many aquaria, when in fact we could guess that uptake actually occurs at a substantially lower intensity (as measured with a 2-pi 'hobby grade' meter.) Thanks again!
     
  20. Dana Riddle

    Dana Riddle Valuable Member Staff Member R2R Supporter Partner Member 2019 Expert Contributor Article Contributor Build Thread Contributor

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    Add threonine to the list. At one point, I charted he amino acid content of every fluorescent protein I could find. Sadly, long lost. I did find my three reference books on the subject (they were stilled packed in the moving boxes.) Let me take a good look when I get the chance. It will be good for me to review since I've decided that coral coloration will the subject of the MACNA presentation. I usually don't reveal publically what the project will be until just before the conference, but after assembling all the equipment and realizing how much work it'll be, I don't think I have to worry about someone stealing my thunder. I've got to find some colorful Acros and quick, but all the shops near by either don't have or want a small fortune for a tiny frag. Some, if not all, of the colony will have to be sacrificed to the coral gods to get usable info...
     
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