Day 16 of Fishless Cycle: Ammonia 0; Nitrate >1

[FortLivingRoom]

So my values are as the title states. Reefer 170 I’ve been cycling with brightwell dry rock starter kit which includes start XLM as the bacteria. Ammonia was dosed to 2ppm and is 0 now. I’ve also been adding Microbacter7 daily because I read poor reviews of the start XLM. The starter kit directions say once nitrite is 0 that the tank is cycled. Nitrite is off the color chart now >1. How long does nitrite typically take to go down? Thanks.

 

[brandon429]

Thirty days if you go off old cycling rules, maybe more than ninety days if api is your tester. But per new cycling rules you are done, you can change out your water so there’s less algae fuel, then add life. It lives because you are cycled and nitrite is no longer factored in reefing, only ammonia performance.

you will know when you can begin based on your selection of old vs new cycling, either way has the same ends. Living reef life


new cycling rules checklist

excluding any reading for nitrite:

did you meet the timeframe on the bottle bac directions - yes

did you meet the time frame on a cycling chart for ammonia control-yes


did you measure ammonia going down in the reeftank after dosing known bacteria and meeting both dates above- yes

you're cycled. In two of these recent cycle quizzes the reefer had a tank with no rocks lol (not a reef tank)

all the above assumes you’ve set up a reef tank, with rocks and or sand

we go out on a limb with no pics

 

[Ludders]

yep just do a water change to get the nitrate back down. Aim around 5ppm nitrate

 

[sreed07]

I’d say you’re done

 

[brandon429]

But if he’s on api, checking nitrite, he might not get to reef until mid 2021
He bought week-ready bac per the directions



old vs new cycling rules

I’ll officially thank every MACNA convention manager in history for not considering nitrite in your four hundred reef tank instant starts. I could have never bought my organisms as you’d still be cycling six weeks after the convention, when the place was a monster truck racetrack. That he owns a test kit allowing a zero ammonia reading was by far the most shocking detail of the post. It’s only fun sleuthing when both nitrite is present and when ammonia holds at .25- even then we’d hold course as above. Change water, begin etc

 

[AquaBiomics]

I've found few answers to this on the forums, in part because of the interference of nitrite on nitrate tests.

In my experiments with live rock, I measured both nitrites and nitrates for more than a month, and corrected for nitrite interference in order to get reasonably accurate measurements of both compounds.

It took about 40 days for nitrites to reach zero with high quality live rock.

This matches what we've generally seen with development of the microbial communities -- ammonia-oxidizing microbes grow first and reach higher levels, while nitrite oxidizing microbes grow more slowly and stay at much lower levels.

In short term experiments with bottled products I've seen production of nitrite and nitrate within 4 days, but havent monitored decline in nitrites with these products.

I'll add that in my opinion, from the perspective of fish health, I don't consider it necessary to wait for these to reach zero. I only mention that endpoint as a way of comparing the effects of different approaches on the growth of microbial communities.

If fish health is the major concern, once the tank can process ammonia (1 or 2 ppm in 24 hours or so) I consider it ready to go. Of course corals are a whole different thing, but generally if we're asking about rapid cycling its for the sake of fish.

 

[FortLivingRoom]

But if he’s on api, checking nitrite, he might not get to reef until mid 2021
He bought week-ready bac per the directions



old vs new cycling rules

I’ll officially thank every MACNA convention manager in history for not considering nitrite in your four hundred reef tank instant starts. I could have never bought my organisms as you’d still be cycling six weeks after the convention, when the place was a monster truck racetrack. That he owns a test kit allowing a zero ammonia reading was by far the most shocking detail of the post. It’s only fun sleuthing when both nitrite is present and when ammonia holds at .25- even then we’d hold course as above. Change water, begin etc

I’ve been using Red Sea test kit.

 

[FortLivingRoom]

I've found few answers to this on the forums, in part because of the interference of nitrite on nitrate tests.

In my experiments with live rock, I measured both nitrites and nitrates for more than a month, and corrected for nitrite interference in order to get reasonably accurate measurements of both compounds.

It took about 40 days for nitrites to reach zero with high quality live rock.

This matches what we've generally seen with development of the microbial communities -- ammonia-oxidizing microbes grow first and reach higher levels, while nitrite oxidizing microbes grow more slowly and stay at much lower levels.

In short term experiments with bottled products I've seen production of nitrite and nitrate within 4 days, but havent monitored decline in nitrites with these products.

I'll add that in my opinion, from the perspective of fish health, I don't consider it necessary to wait for these to reach zero. I only mention that endpoint as a way of comparing the effects of different approaches on the growth of microbial communities.

If fish health is the major concern, once the tank can process ammonia (1 or 2 ppm in 24 hours or so) I consider it ready to go. Of course corals are a whole different thing, but generally if we're asking about rapid cycling its for the sake of fish.

So is it the nitrite that interferes with nitrate reading? Or vice versa?

 

[AquaBiomics]

As I understand it, Nitrate tests typically work by converting nitrate to nitrite, then measuring the amount. So if there is already some nitrite present, it will make the calculation of nitrate inaccurate.

A nitrite test on the other hand typically uses the same chemistry but without the conversion step, so it just measures the existing nitrite. So I'm not aware of any problems caused by the presence of nitrate for these tests.

 

[FortLivingRoom]

As I understand it, Nitrate tests typically work by converting nitrate to nitrite, then measuring the amount. So if there is already some nitrite present, it will make the calculation of nitrate inaccurate.

A nitrite test on the other hand typically uses the same chemistry but without the conversion step, so it just measures the existing nitrite. So I'm not aware of any problems caused by the presence of nitrate for these tests.

Is there any type of equilibrium between nitrite and nitrate? For instance, if nitrates are real high can it degrade back to nitrite? Or once it’s oxidized that’s all there is to it? Just curious.

 

[brandon429]

Reef tanks always run above zero ammonia and nitrite as a constant active conversion rate (waste input, feed conversion doesn’t stop) and what’s striking is a working seneye meter shows the same conversions whether in pico reefs (no fish permanently fallow) or 400 gallon systems, thirty fish...post-cycle for ammonia nh3

The rates are apparently a function of the degree of surface area we all overdo in reefing and the water contact we produce because corals like it, this makes universally efficient biofilters.

we would need hanna digital to see if nitrite takes longer to comply than a cycle chart says


that adds up to free ammonia being the most predictable param we work with in reefing... we don’t need a test kit to infer what it does.
Cycle charts directly show us when ammonia goes down, it doesn’t come back up (without mass dieoff)

solving for the time axis on a cycling chart after adding bottle bac is more accurate than 98% of hobby testers, and Dr Reefs large bottle bac thread tested its completion times per batch by using 100% water changes then testing on the clean system (which tests surface activation vs items dosed into suspension, a sort of ‘cheat’ cycle)


neither nitrite nor nitrate factor in your allowed start date, and compliance from all three won’t prevent fish disease from taking over, the fish disease forum shows. Agreed on fish preps, that’s independent from cycling and from allowed start dates


fallow prep is highly recommended per the fish disease forum.

one of the most fascinating happenings in reefing is occurring right now, we are evolving the dates a cycle is complete, pretty fun. what i like best is watching thread patterns, whose tanks live vs die. Which conventions get to run, and which ones are sent packing by cycle non compliance.


if you place life in an uncycled nano reef of dry sand, dry rocks, it’s all dead on a day or two max. You can’t luck into start date modification, death and total wipeout is the real ref.

 

[FortLivingRoom]

Just wanted to post a follow-up. I won’t be receiving livestock for another 2 weeks so I figured I would just let the tank bake a little. I’ve continued daily dosing of microbacter7 and today I would say my nitrites are as close to undetectable as they’ll get, although not truly “zero” on the test kit. Today is the 21-day mark since cycle began.

My question is, since I’m not getting livestock for another 2 weeks would it help to wait until closer to that date to do a water change? I have a 4” thick marine pure block in the sump, and my theory is by holding off on the water change I’ll perhaps be able to establish more bacteria that can convert the nitrate to nitrogen gas. Sound feasible?

 

[Ludders]

I would do a water change and add a bit more ammonia

 

[Galliente]

So my values are as the title states. Reefer 170 I’ve been cycling with brightwell dry rock starter kit which includes start XLM as the bacteria. Ammonia was dosed to 2ppm and is 0 now. I’ve also been adding Microbacter7 daily because I read poor reviews of the start XLM. The starter kit directions say once nitrite is 0 that the tank is cycled. Nitrite is off the color chart now >1. How long does nitrite typically take to go down? Thanks.

Hey there, no pro here just back into the hobby after 10 years.

But I just cycled my tank. Used bacter7 as well. No fish. But I did not use ammonia for any spike nor did I ghost feed. I did add lfs live rock and live sand.

After a week dosing MB7 it had cycled. But I waited another week of testing just to make sure before I added my first fish.

No water changes during the cycle either. I have been testing the water with a clown pair in the tank for about a week and at my 4 week mark about to do my first water change.

Only down side I have had was a small diatom bloom once I started to feed the clowns. But once i noticed the beginning of the bloom i got my cuc and they wiped out most diatoms.

 

[FortLivingRoom]

Hey there, no pro here just back into the hobby after 10 years.

But I just cycled my tank. Used bacter7 as well. No fish. But I did not use ammonia for any spike nor did I ghost feed. I did add lfs live rock and live sand.

After a week dosing MB7 it had cycled. But I waited another week of testing just to make sure before I added my first fish.

No water changes during the cycle either. I have been testing the water with a clown pair in the tank for about a week and at my 4 week mark about to do my first water change.

Only down side I have had was a small diatom bloom once I started to feed the clowns. But once i noticed the beginning of the bloom i got my cuc and they wiped out most diatoms.

What have your ammonia levels been since adding the fish? I was under the impression you had to start with some type of ammonia source, either artificial or natural, in order for the tank to begin cycling. I’m no expert either I just got back in after 10 years too, but since the fish are your ammonia source I think you would be currently cycling?

 

[Ludders]

What have your ammonia levels been since adding the fish? I was under the impression you had to start with some type of ammonia source, either artificial or natural, in order for the tank to begin cycling. I’m no expert either I just got back in after 10 years too, but since the fish are your ammonia source I think you would be currently cycling?

He used live rock from the store, so that would be pre cycled and essentially skips the cycle process.

 

[Galliente]

What have your ammonia levels been since adding the fish? I was under the impression you had to start with some type of ammonia source, either artificial or natural, in order for the tank to begin cycling. I’m no expert either I just got back in after 10 years too, but since the fish are your ammonia source I think you would be currently cycling?

Ammonia is zero.

I read conflicting things across the forums.

One of the guides I followed was to use the live rock and sand. The theory behind that was the decay/orgs/bacteria will cause an ammonia spike from the rock/sand alone. Thus starting the nitrogen process.

I daily dosed MB7 and followed their directions to the T. Heated up the tank to 84 added a bag of carbon but no skimmer.

I did use 20 lbs live sand and approx 20 lbs live rock from lfs. 15 life rock.

The tests I did every other day followed the the appropriate spike,mellow and stabilization.

The test did stabilize after a week but I waited another and saw the nitrate continue to rise while ammonia and nitrite stayed at 0.

Tbh wasn't sure if the tactic would work but I didnt really want to dose ammonia if i didnt have to. Nor use the live fish cycle tactic since i have kids and didnt want to risk a death.

After 2 weeks of no ammonia added the clown pair. Then I started the light schedule.

A week into the light schedule some diatoms started so I added a cuc added the skimmer and threw chemipure blue in the filter.

Things are going well as of now. Have had some temp spikes with the added skimmer but nothing to do with the initial cycle. I would say cycle is complete.

 

[Galliente]

@ludden

I did have an initial bump in ammonia, but nothing like what I have seen others go thru. I did have some base rock and base sand so I'm wondering if that's what caused the fluctuation.

I guess my fear is possible hitchhikers now.

 

[Ludders]

yeah that's the slight worry and why people go through the pain of dry rock. Adding the live rock though is such a boost to the biological filtration and it rapidly cuts out the setup/cycle time of a new tank. I am cycling some rock at the moment in the garage and it has been running for 7 weeks now and still not ready for the tank yet, but I am not in a hurry and I don't even have the tank yet.

 

[lafarrow]

which app i that in post #1?