Debating the use of LED's in Mike Paletta's new tank

[Shep]

So... This thread will be a repeat of dozens of others.

A. Metal halides work well, but have disadvantages.
B. T5 works well, but have disadvantages.
C. LEDs work well, but have disadvantages.

Each can work well, depending on usage & circumstances.

+10000000000

 

[SciGuy2]

Still love my Iwaski 6500 K's and T12 VHO actinic 03's.

Don't shoot me, please.

 

[peder]

I use 2x250w mh, 4x54w t5, 2x Orphek sky blue OR 120 Led.
SO i love you all’

 

[Flippers4pups]

I've stayed out of this thread for multiple reasons, up till now.

I read all the posts to it and at times made me sick to my stomach, sadden and disgusted. The whole premise behind it and the OP's original post to it is, without a lack of better words, biased. In all due respect to the OP, taking the words of Mr. Paletta, that isn't here to defend himself or chooses to not participate for personal reasons and falsely quotes them and defends them to make a point, is in my book, biased. Not open minded.

The OP could have easily PM'd Mr.Paletta and had this conversation one on one to get the facts straight, out of respect to Mr. Paletta. Unfortunately for everyone here, that didn't happen.

In all respect to Mr. Paletta, I fully understand not engaging the OP here, based on the original OP's post.

I have personally learned to try my darndest to be open minded. Debates are healthy and can be rewarding if, and I say if, all parties are amicable to each others point of view. Being biased on ones beliefs, wether based on science, anecdotal evidence or just gut feelings should be accepted and or agreed to disagree respectfully. Unfortunately, not everyone in the world has the capability to do so.

In closing, I have encountered the OP in the past, years ago on another forum. His bias towards his preferred lighting preferences has sparked similar debates and consequences.

The hobby is about personal preferences and personal choices. Wether they are learned or suggested by others, they are personal preferences. As many have quoted, there's many different ways to do this hobby. There is a respectful, professional and open mind approach, that all of us should always strive for towards each other when sharing our points of view.

Unfortunately, that didn't happen here this time.

Happy reefing everyone!

 

[Oshengems]

I've stayed out of this thread for multiple reasons, up till now.

I read all the posts to it and at times made me sick to my stomach, sadden and disgusted. The whole premise behind it and the OP's original post to it is, without a lack of better words, biased. In all due respect to the OP, taking the words of Mr. Paletta, that isn't here to defend himself or chooses to not participate for personal reasons and falsely quotes them and defends them to make a point, is in my book, biased. Not open minded.

The OP could have easily PM'd Mr.Paletta and had this conversation one on one to get the facts straight, out of respect to Mr. Paletta. Unfortunately for everyone here, that didn't happen.

In all respect to Mr. Paletta, I fully understand not engaging the OP here, based on the original OP's post.

I have personally learned to try my darndest to be open minded. Debates are healthy and can be rewarding if, and I say if, all parties are amicable to each others point of view. Being biased on ones beliefs, wether based on science, anecdotal evidence or just gut feelings should be accepted and or agreed to disagree respectfully. Unfortunately, not everyone in the world has the capability to do so.

In closing, I have encountered the OP in the past, years ago on another forum. His bias towards his preferred lighting preferences has sparked similar debates and consequences.

The hobby is about personal preferences and personal choices. Wether they are learned or suggested by others, they are personal preferences. As many have quoted, there's many different ways to do this hobby. There is a respectful, professional and open mind approach, that all of us should always strive for towards each other when sharing our points of view.

Unfortunately, that didn't happen here this time.

Happy reefing everyone!

Great write up, not bashing anyone here but it seems it’s a trend in this hobby, being that tanks could be successful in many different ways and configurations, I don’t understand why if you step out the norm you are fround upon and at times in this hobby it is almost as if people wish for failure instead on finding new ways to do things, examples of this, you couldn’t speak off before it was almost taboo, tanks without water changes! which is fine now because companies like Triton DSR and BRS(don’t really know their names) tell us its ok now, so now we Kinda accept it and still you get your occasional old school saying “ let’s talk in a year or so” another is the infamous algae scrubbers those were like curse words in most forums although people saying they had success it was much easier to stay quiet than getting ganged up and discouraged in a forum for saying I’m using one it works. I feel this because my previous tank was running well without water changes and LED lights and I actually canceled my old accounts on other older sites from the heat and insults I used to get for “misinforming” new reefers giving them wild thoughts. So it’s not just LEDs vs MH there are many other topics in this hobby that people are set in stone it could only be done their way if not your just a fool and your tank will die!

 

[Flippers4pups]

Great write up, not bashing anyone here but it seems it’s a trend in this hobby, being that tanks could be successful in many different ways and configurations, I don’t understand why if you step out the norm you are fround upon and at times in this hobby it is almost as if people wish for failure instead on finding new ways to do things, examples of this, you couldn’t speak off before it was almost taboo, tanks without water changes! which is fine now because companies like Triton DSR and BRS(don’t really know their names) tell us its ok now, so now we Kinda accept it and still you get your occasional old school saying “ let’s talk in a year or so” another is the infamous algae scrubbers those were like curse words in most forums although people saying they had success it was much easier to stay quiet than getting ganged up and discouraged in a forum for saying I’m using one it works. I feel this because my previous tank was running well without water changes and LED lights and I actually canceled my old accounts on other older sites from the heat and insults I used to get for “misinforming” new reefers giving them wild thoughts. So it’s not just LEDs vs MH there are many other topics in this hobby that people are set in stone it could only be done their way if not your just a fool and your tank will die!

Thank you. I agree. Reef2reef was made to be a open and friendly place to share personal preferences. Not hold them down.

 

[Sallstrom]

Great write up, not bashing anyone here but it seems it’s a trend in this hobby, being that tanks could be successful in many different ways and configurations, I don’t understand why if you step out the norm you are fround upon and at times in this hobby it is almost as if people wish for failure instead on finding new ways to do things, examples of this, you couldn’t speak off before it was almost taboo, tanks without water changes! which is fine now because companies like Triton DSR and BRS(don’t really know their names) tell us its ok now, so now we Kinda accept it and still you get your occasional old school saying “ let’s talk in a year or so” another is the infamous algae scrubbers those were like curse words in most forums although people saying they had success it was much easier to stay quiet than getting ganged up and discouraged in a forum for saying I’m using one it works. I feel this because my previous tank was running well without water changes and LED lights and I actually canceled my old accounts on other older sites from the heat and insults I used to get for “misinforming” new reefers giving them wild thoughts. So it’s not just LEDs vs MH there are many other topics in this hobby that people are set in stone it could only be done their way if not your just a fool and your tank will die!

I've heard you'll never reach "top 10%" if you don't do water changes OR use metal halides.. But I've never really gotten any explanation on why

 

[vetteguy53081]

It was long and kind of boring [emoji42]

Is the video over??

 

[vetteguy53081]

Thank you. I agree. Reef2reef was made to be a open and friendly place to share personal preferences. Not hold them down.

Opinions and general feelings welcomed. Sarcasm is Not.

 

[120reefkeeper]

I like Halides

I like T-5’s

I know some of the most trusted LED’s are really expensive and that’s what has kept me from investing in them. When you have multiple systems that are flourishing under “ older technology “ it makes it difficult to justify purchasing LED’s.

Not only that , but I’m somewhat fearful of switching because of the potential of loosing years worth of growth and stability to a still relatively new tech that’s getting better each revision.

 

[A. grandis]

I was going to abandon this thread.
But...
I said... NO! Not fair!
Just one more post!

I will publish the comparison below just to get it out and clarify things here, seriously.
I didn't like the way many came here to make mess and try to take away the real meaning of this thread.
I didn't like the way I was treated by some of the participants. I forgive you.

So here is probably my last post.

I think the truth is only one!
I also think that all of you can see what's in this post and decide for yourself what to follow and believe.
Please check word by word from the 2 videos and have fun learning from the American Reef Channel video!

I'm not against any LED per say. Not against Mr. Paletta, who I respect and appreciate what he did and do for our hobby.
Not against Mr. Rico, who is a very nice guy, and any not against any of you.
I know some of you must hate me, but I don't hate you. Believe me, I would tell you, if so!!
I like and enjoy this forum and all the mods and the owner.
It is hard to participate sometimes when people see you as a leader against LEDs. LOL!!! I'm not!!!
I'm just a halide/T5 guy! As I've said millions of times, I have a lot of LED friends!

Once more: I'm against some of the fake propaganda in any way promoting LEDs and diminishing halides and/or T5s! Why?
Because isn't right and isn't fair!!! Isn't fair with the newbies that don't know better!!!
The pros and cons are there and people need to know all that, but play a fair game, please.
The pros and cons will show many advantages of T5s and halides over any LED in the market, if there is no heat consideration!!! Period!
That is the simple truth!
Also the taste for the type of light plays. Who cares!?


From Rico's video:
@10:39
"... we don't need to keep our tanks blown with like we used with the metal halides...
... as we have discussed we've known people with 300 gallon tanks running 1000W metal halides on them...
... that's what they needed on the reef to keep the reef going...
... we found over time that's not what we need and it tend not to have the brightest colors...
... You saw the sunlight tank... we probably going to take a look in a minute ... that originally started off as an SPS tank...
... what could be better than sunlight?...
... well, as I've found when we run max light they tend to get really nice brown corals...
... they grow like weeds **Rico laughs** but they don't look like anything this corals in this tank...
... so I'm going to use Radions on all my tanks ..."

Hummm...


In the video above, our friend Mike Paletta still had his halides, he goes on like this:
@10:50
... right now I don't have the LEDs on. What I have is a 250W 65K bulb, which looks yellow green, compared with the 14K Ushio, and much more green compared with the 20,000K Radium...
... I mean, we can see how different the colors are...
... now, there is a cost benefit to this...
... the blue corals look really blue under the 20Ks, and a lot of other corals look really vibrant and it's visually pleasing...
... This looks kinda harsh and kinda bleak...
... but, you also get some added benefits with this...
... I remember back when Sanjay Joshi as just really getting serious about lighting...
... he was running his tanks exclusively on 6500K Iwasakis
... He may had some actinic a little bit... but it was just supplemental ...
... but with those 65000Ks he has some of the vibrant corals...
... because the growth rates were phenomenal and as we all know the faster the growth, brighter are the growth tips, that's where the most color is, and you got a lot more coloration on the corals...
... and in his tanks he would grow corals like cinder blocks...
... I mean, they would grow so thick and so profusely that he would have to go with a chisel to get the corals out...
... and I'm not talking about the skinny little branch things, I'm talking like Acropora humillis, samoensis, things that we don't usually keep much now because they are more difficult to keep, and they tend to not look all that exciting, particularly under 20K or higher kelvin bulbs...
... but in his tanks, the thing that gets more interesting is the top to the coral where the polyps were at the very tips were one color, the branches were another and the base was a third...
... because of getting so faster growth and was getting a lot more appealing corals the what we are seeing now...

Ok, now you decide which words from Mr. Paletta you want to believe.

Please stop bulling who wants to bring truth to you and stop calling me a LED hater.
I'm doing this to show you the truth so you know better.
Mr. Paletta already knows better, my friends!!! It's in the video!

Have a great weekend folks.

By the way, I didn't open this thread, just so you know!
It was mdbannister, one of our moderators.

Bonus:
This tank was lit by 3 X HQI 600W.
No brown corals?????
Enjoy the music!
Keep reffing!
Love you all. Peace!

 

[Stigigemla]

This video is more than 4 years old. If I know Mike Paletta right he has learned something in this 4 years. So why not wait until he comes home again and makes a comment on the subject.
I guess he has some new points to make clear.

And I dont understand why it is so much fuzz about his lighting. We all know that there are functioning tanks with all 3 kinds of light.
Just wait and see how he will make it. Then decide if You will follow Paletta or WWcorals or someone else. Or wait a year to see his success and then follow.

 

[Antics]

I didn't read the original thread and I've skimmed the replies in this one so please correct me if I am wrong.

Is @A. grandis upset that T5s and MH are basically getting treated like they are suboptimal and inferior to LED or is it because LED are being shown as viable? Because I can get on board with the former if that was the case but not the latter lol.

 

[DSC reef]

@A. grandis by the way, @mdbannister moved your comments to a seperate thread since you purposely started a derailment of mike palettas journal. You disrespect the members on here and now a mod, why do you even come here??

 

[hart24601]

@A. grandis by the way, @mdbannister moved your comments to a seperate thread since you purposely started a derailment of mike palettas journal. You disrespect the members on here and now a mod, why do you even come here??

To make reef2reef a less inviting place and contribute no original content and experiences.

 

[Gregg @ ADP]

I’m not sure there is a more overblown aspect of reef keeping than lighting.

The good MHs will give good results, the good T5s will give good results, the good LEDs will give good results, the good combos will give good results.

At the end of the day, none of it is the sun or even close to it. So....

 

[Shep]

I was going to abandon this thread.
But...
I said... NO! Not fair!
Just one more post!

I will publish the comparison below just to get it out and clarify things here, seriously.
I didn't like the way many came here to make mess and try to take away the real meaning of this thread.
I didn't like the way I was treated by some of the participants. I forgive you.

So here is probably my last post.

I think the truth is only one!
I also think that all of you can see what's in this post and decide for yourself what to follow and believe.
Please check word by word from the 2 videos and have fun learning from the American Reef Channel video!

I'm not against any LED per say. Not against Mr. Paletta, who I respect and appreciate what he did and do for our hobby.
Not against Mr. Rico, who is a very nice guy, and any not against any of you.
I know some of you must hate me, but I don't hate you. Believe me, I would tell you, if so!!
I like and enjoy this forum and all the mods and the owner.
It is hard to participate sometimes when people see you as a leader against LEDs. LOL!!! I'm not!!!
I'm just a halide/T5 guy! As I've said millions of times, I have a lot of LED friends!

Once more: I'm against some of the fake propaganda in any way promoting LEDs and diminishing halides and/or T5s! Why?
Because isn't right and isn't fair!!! Isn't fair with the newbies that don't know better!!!
The pros and cons are there and people need to know all that, but play a fair game, please.
The pros and cons will show many advantages of T5s and halides over any LED in the market, if there is no heat consideration!!! Period!
That is the simple truth!
Also the taste for the type of light plays. Who cares!?


From Rico's video:
@10:39
"... we don't need to keep our tanks blown with like we used with the metal halides...
... as we have discussed we've known people with 300 gallon tanks running 1000W metal halides on them...
... that's what they needed on the reef to keep the reef going...
... we found over time that's not what we need and it tend not to have the brightest colors...
... You saw the sunlight tank... we probably going to take a look in a minute ... that originally started off as an SPS tank...
... what could be better than sunlight?...
... well, as I've found when we run max light they tend to get really nice brown corals...
... they grow like weeds **Rico laughs** but they don't look like anything this corals in this tank...
... so I'm going to use Radions on all my tanks ..."

Hummm...


In the video above, our friend Mike Paletta still had his halides, he goes on like this:
@10:50
... right now I don't have the LEDs on. What I have is a 250W 65K bulb, which looks yellow green, compared with the 14K Ushio, and much more green compared with the 20,000K Radium...
... I mean, we can see how different the colors are...
... now, there is a cost benefit to this...
... the blue corals look really blue under the 20Ks, and a lot of other corals look really vibrant and it's visually pleasing...
... This looks kinda harsh and kinda bleak...
... but, you also get some added benefits with this...
... I remember back when Sanjay Joshi as just really getting serious about lighting...
... he was running his tanks exclusively on 6500K Iwasakis
... He may had some actinic a little bit... but it was just supplemental ...
... but with those 65000Ks he has some of the vibrant corals...
... because the growth rates were phenomenal and as we all know the faster the growth, brighter are the growth tips, that's where the most color is, and you got a lot more coloration on the corals...
... and in his tanks he would grow corals like cinder blocks...
... I mean, they would grow so thick and so profusely that he would have to go with a chisel to get the corals out...
... and I'm not talking about the skinny little branch things, I'm talking like Acropora humillis, samoensis, things that we don't usually keep much now because they are more difficult to keep, and they tend to not look all that exciting, particularly under 20K or higher kelvin bulbs...
... but in his tanks, the thing that gets more interesting is the top to the coral where the polyps were at the very tips were one color, the branches were another and the base was a third...
... because of getting so faster growth and was getting a lot more appealing corals the what we are seeing now...

Ok, now you decide which words from Mr. Paletta you want to believe.

Please stop bulling who wants to bring truth to you and stop calling me a LED hater.
I'm doing this to show you the truth so you know better.
Mr. Paletta already knows better, my friends!!! It's in the video!

Have a great weekend folks.

By the way, I didn't open this thread, just so you know!
It was mdbannister, one of our moderators.

Bonus:
This tank was lit by 3 X HQI 600W.
No brown corals?????
Enjoy the music!
Keep reffing!
Love you all. Peace!

Honestly, why is it such a big deal that someone uses LEDs?

 

[Peter K]

In my opinion, whether or not you hate or love LED's/Halides/etc., the fact we even have a multitude of options and we have access to advancing technologies speaks wonders to the growth and interest in this hobby.

In the not so distant future, there is a possibility the only place we will see reefs with the corals we know and love today will be in hobbyists tanks and aquariums around the world. Each of the lighting technologies mentioned in this thread offer viable solutions to nearly every hobbyist where the downsides of one technology to one hobbyist may be the upside to another. We are in control of extremely delicate and sensitive organisms in our tanks and whatever solution enables you, as an individual, to allow those organisms to flourish is a huge success and shows how far we have come. In the spirit of Mike Plaetta, this video is fascinating and only highlights the growth of this hobby.\

At the end of the day we are all in this hobby together, and while debates are necessary, in my opinion, for the advancement and pursuit of ideas, disrespect and close mindedness lead to the exact opposite.

 

[Servillius]

I’m just dropping in to answer a question that seems to come up a lot. Folks keep asking why does it matter which lighting is best. In a principaled sort of sense it doesn’t and it shouldn’t.

But keep in mind there’s only so much R+D budget in this hobby. The profit margins on LED lights blow the old lighting away. Industry has every right to pursue profits. I’m not judging. But I think if you ask the question in terms of “are LEDs so good we should kill off the old tech or at best let it go obsolescent?” folks might be more cautious in their answers.

I’m biased. I don’t like LEDs because I’m an idiot. I can handle an on switch just fine, but all the nobs and dials is a road to failure in my house. I sure appreciate people keeping up the old tech.

 

[User1]

In my opinion, whether or not you hate or love LED's/Halides/etc., the fact we even have a multitude of options and we have access to advancing technologies speaks wonders to the growth and interest in this hobby.

In the not so distant future, there is a possibility the only place we will see reefs with the corals we know and love today will be in hobbyists tanks and aquariums around the world. Each of the lighting technologies mentioned in this thread offer viable solutions to nearly every hobbyist where the downsides of one technology to one hobbyist may be the upside to another. We are in control of extremely delicate and sensitive organisms in our tanks and whatever solution enables you, as an individual, to allow those organisms to flourish is a huge success and shows how far we have come. In the spirit of Mike Plaetta, this video is fascinating and only highlights the growth of this hobby.\

At the end of the day we are all in this hobby together, and while debates are necessary, in my opinion, for the advancement and pursuit of ideas, disrespect and close mindedness lead to the exact opposite.

The sky isn't falling by any means. We should propagate and buy captive bred for sure. But the only place is just not going to happen. Mother nature is not to be messed with unless someone starts lobbing nukes I think reefs will be around much longer than humans.