Deciding on controller: What do you hate most about Apex, GHL, and HYDROS?

[lafarrow]

Back to GHL or Hydros or neither.. i mean i dont need a controller, its id like it thing, but if it l8mits my hardware options im simply not going to do it or pay someone to take away my options in this hobby

After following this thread and confirming some stuff I knew, learning some stuff I did not know, and hearing real life experiences I am looking hard at GHL. I'll take not easy software and reliable hardware anyway. Between reliable and easy I know how I'll choose..

 

[Mywifeisgunnakillme]

Sorry to rant, it's just frustrating. The last time i purchased a controller. Aqua jr., or might have been aqua controller III, it controlled whatever u plugged into it...

I mean i literally have no price limit on what i would spend, if it did what i wanted and controlled the equipment i wanted, but these ******s purposely choose to not sell such a product...

I cant be the only one that feels this way... feel like ive wasted my time researching these controllers. Better off avoiding them.

 

[HuduVudu]

Hmmmm

I love the tech that the controllers provide. I knew that the halcion days of the APEX EcoTech marriage would eventually come to an end, and alas here we are. The divorce has been finalized. I too am willing to pay. Seriously I have $1000+ worth of gear on a 20 gallon breeder.

So I am going to go up to the 30,000 foot level. First off. Companies are greedy and CEOs are full of bravado. This ensures that there will be no connection standard. This is a FACT. We as consumers should never expect this. EVER. If it for some reason ever comes to pass by some fluke, then take advantage of it while it lasts, because it won't be long.

What needs to be done is to learn how to actively implement tech. Use the tech in unintended ways, like what Lasse showed further up the thread. Don't look for "clean" solutions. Because if you get a solution like that you can certain that you will never have enough money implement it and the solutions will be, if you are lucky, mediocre. So many people come to this hobby and they think that they can buy their success. Trust me there isn't enough money in the world. Pre-packaged solutions only end up breeding complacency and that is the death of our creatures. You can't spend nothing and do this on the cheap and by the same token you can't spend unlimited amounts of money either. That is why this hobby is such a pull for so many. They think they can conquer it with either knowledge or money. This ensures plenty of used equipment hitting the market constantly. Many, many, many people are vanquished by this truth.

You need a DIY mindset to truly master this hobby. You need to observe not ignore, to truly see the things happening in your aquarium. This takes time and patience and sometimes it leads to some crazy truths. Certainly use the tech to dump menial tasks, but don't use it to forget about the tank. Remember there will always be someone there to sell you something when things go wrong. There will always be someone there to offer advice to make there own problem feel less frustrating even though they themselves have never solved it. Like anything in life learn to discern charlatans from actual help. We as human beings never get to be free of predators in our lives, the only difference is now the predators walk on two legs instead of four.

Don't give up on all of this. Don't throw your hands up in the air and say it is all too stupid and complicated. These are the first steps for understanding the fundamental truths that we must play by to be successful in this hobby. It is really hard when something is new to know the real work that must be done to succeed. Often when we are first confronted with the actual work we recoil. It can't be like this. It can't work like this. The end of our delusion of how things work is the most important milestones that we will make as we travel down the path that this hobby requires.

We are our own worst enemy. Learn to get out of the way and understanding will come quickly and easily.

 

[Mywifeisgunnakillme]

I hear you. I am just ranting because it's a bit ridiculous. These idiots try to screw each other and just turn people off to the hobby.

The craft-brewing industry learned this lesson decades ago, almost from the beginning of the movement... God knows what would have happened with craft beer if they didn't...

As brief history, small breweries tried to compete with and screw each other at first... It just screwed themselves... It did not help anyone...

Then, a change occurred, the small breweries started brew festivals and started concentrating on just trying to grow the number of consumers. They openly helped each other. Master brewers are open about recipes and techniques and openly tell others all of their "secrets." They tried to get wine drinkers not to stop drinking wine--but try craft beer too. To this day, while customers may have favorites--they openly buy all brands and their really is no such thing a brand loyalty when it comes to craft beer--customer just buy whatever is good. (the opposite model of the macro beer industry by the way...)

The cooperation and open support for each other worked amazing... A rising tide raised all ships, so to speak... Numbers/Percentage of craft beer drinkers has steadily risen for decades and while some breweries do well and others fail--there has been amazing success. and most anyone working in industry finds it very enjoyable. No "wars" with companies....

The percentage of Macro beer drinker numbers versus craft beer drinkers have decreased under the opposite--compete with each other at all costs-- model, by the way..

Anyway these Apex and vortech and any other company limiting access to their products just for the sake of it should take a lesson and try to grow the numbers of hobbyists, share technology and secrets, and just make the better mouse trap, instead doing everything to effectuate the opposite...

In sum, thanks--I do think this conversation helped me... A lot. I was unaware of all the BS. Now that i understand, I am not buying a controller. I can do the same with wifi plugs and such. Maybe in the future i'll buy a Hydros, when they have a little better product, simply because they have taken consumer stance i speak about above of an open--grow the hobby as whole--format...

 

[Kyl]

One thing I have learned during my 7 years is that all eggs in one basket is not ideal. I was at one point wanting everything on the controller, and that started me on the path to ecosystem lock-in, or the sunk cost fallacy.

The best advise I can say is do not back yourself into a corner, and look for vendor agnostic accessories whenever possible (0-10v, etc).

 

[DJF]

What I dislike most about apex is their vertical integration coupled with poor craftsmanship. Built for you to have to buy again.

what I dislike the most about ghl is that I lose connectivity often in my house. but I do like ghl

 

[Bepis]

I’m just going to say this. I own a apex system. It’s cheap plastic and I wish considering the ion director and everything else that I had gone with GHL

 

[howaboutme]

I'm just coming back to this hobby after about 5/6 years and a lot has happened so this thread has helped me explain a few things. I was using a Reef Angel (and will continue to do so). However, it is very obvious that this controller is slowly losing it's original luster from the techies/coders/tinkerers and likely because of everything going proprietary as mentioned above. It's a shame because it's a good product, not w/o it's flaws, but perfect for the right hobbyist. In today's world of instant gratification, it is not however.

 

[ctopherl]

More specifically:

https://aquariumcontrollers.com/files/controllers.html

This is a incredibly detailed comparison of many many controllers. Nice job @robbyg

@robbyg any line of sight on getting the "ratings" (reliability and such) for Hydros? This is what I'd love to learn and would probably base a decision on myself!

 

[n2585722]

@robbyg any line of sight on getting the "ratings" (reliability and such) for Hydros? This is what I'd love to learn and would probably base a decision on myself!

The Hydros came out the end of October last year. I got my first one around November 15. I still have it and it is working great. I have added 7 more controllers to it and have them in a collective. That means they share their inputs and outputs. It basically act a one larger controller. I was using an Archon. I have almost everything transferred to the Hydros now. The only thing left is the lighting. I will need to get some 0-10v to PWM converters to use the Hydros. The Archon had PWM outputs. I have not been in any hurry to transfer that. So far I have been able to do everything I was doing on my Archon with the Hydros. I have no complaints. The app now has pages for status. You can choose what is displayed on each page. With larger systems it makes it easier if you have related items on their own page. That way you can separate inputs and outputs for things like ATO, AWC and dosing as examples. Hope this helps. I don't think it has been out long enough to get anything on reliability. All 8 of my controllers have had no issues. The controllers are IP65 rated so accidental splashes should not be an issue. I would not dunk one though.

 

[FishyFishFish]

Things I like (from research).

Hydros
Ability to have multiple ‘brains’.

Nice looking software.

Relatively Cheap.

Apex
Good selection of ancillaries (particularly Trident).

GHL
Generally high quality hardware (although I did have a tank crash thanks to multiple power supply failures).

Things I don’t like:

Hydros
It appears that Hydros is reliant on the cloud for changes (that might be wrong but it still spooks me).

I don’t like their attitude towards documentation (they think that telling you how it works is outdated).

Coralvue/Hydros customer service.

Apex
The design won’t work in my cabinet, so I can’t look at it any further!

GHL
Software is not the greatest.

Support is not the greatest.

Quite expensive.


Strangely it is the things that I don’t like that are causing me issues with my decision making. Customer service could be the deciding factor but, in my opinion, neither GHL or Hydros have got this right yet (and Hydros’ attitude does not encourage me to spend my money there).

I’m seriously considering GHL again, but my mind changes on a daily basis.

 

[ctopherl]

The Hydros came out the end of October last year. I got my first one around November 15. I still have it and it is working great. I have added 7 more controllers to it and have them in a collective. That means they share their inputs and outputs. It basically act a one larger controller. I was using an Archon. I almost everything transferred to the Hydros now. The only thing left is the lighting. I will need to get some 0%10v to PWM converters to use the Hydros. The Archon had PWM outputs. I have not been in any hurry to transfer that. So far I have been able to do everything I was doing on my Archon with the Hydros. I have no complaints. The app now has pages for status. You can choose what is displayed on each page. With larger systems it makes it easier if you have related items on their own page. That way you can separate inputs and outputs for things like ATO, AWC and dosing as examples. Hope this helps. I don't think it has been out long enough to get anything on reliability. All 8 of my controllers have had no issues. The controllers are IP65 rated so accidental splashes should not be an issue. I would not dunk one though.

Thanks for chiming in! That's true for reliability-lack of data. Part of this IMO is build quality though and I haven't noticed any real issues for this online, unlike Apex. My biggest fear is spending $500 on a controller, having it not work right out of the box and getting no support from the owning company to make it right. If Hydros is better in this area that would probably put me over the edge to go Hydros over Apex!

 

[burningmime]

I bought an Apex, and I really wish I hadn't. The thing I hate most is the 7 amp relay; it means that I can't plug my heater into it and even without a heater I can draw near 5 amps from one energy bar which is really pushing the limit.

But really what I hate is that I spent nearly $1000 on what amounts to 2 cheaply-made wifi power strips, a pH monitor, and 2 paddlewheel flow monitors, one of which came broken. It's not that I don't understand the value proposition of tank automation. I don't understand the value proposition of a controller, in particular Apex, unless you're fully bought into the Neptune ecosystem.

My lights and powerheads are automated through Mobius. My heater is automated by Inkbird. My dosing pumps and alk monitoring are automated through GHL Control Center (Kh director does not require Profilux). The only other control I need is to remotely turn stuff on/off or turn things off for a period of time (eg turn off skimmer/UV for 4 hours when I add bacteria), which can conveniently be done with any old Wifi power strip.

So here are the things I can do with $1000+ in Apex gear that I couldn't do with 2 smart power strips:

1. Turn off my skimmer when the pH reaches 8.4
2. See a chart of my pH (I can see temperature through Inkbird app)
3. Monitor return flow (but I have not looked into other options for flow monitoring)
4. Get a text message or email if there's water on the floor or pH/temp is out of range

 

[ctopherl]

I bought an Apex, and I really wish I hadn't. The thing I hate most is the 7 amp relay; it means that I can't plug my heater into it and even without a heater I can draw near 5 amps from one energy bar which is really pushing the limit.

But really what I hate is that I spent nearly $1000 on what amounts to 2 cheaply-made wifi power strips, a pH monitor, and 2 paddlewheel flow monitors, one of which came broken. It's not that I don't understand the value proposition of tank automation. I don't understand the value proposition of a controller, in particular Apex, unless you're fully bought into the Neptune ecosystem.

My lights and powerheads are automated through Mobius. My heater is automated by Inkbird. My dosing pumps and alk monitoring are automated through GHL Control Center (Kh director does not require Profilux). The only other control I need is to remotely turn stuff on/off or turn things off for a period of time (eg turn off skimmer/UV for 4 hours when I add bacteria), which can conveniently be done with any old Wifi power strip.

So here are the things I can do with $1000+ in Apex gear that I couldn't do with 2 smart power strips:

1. Turn off my skimmer when the pH reaches 8.4
2. See a chart of my pH (I can see temperature through Inkbird app)
3. Monitor return flow (but I have not looked into other options for flow monitoring)
4. Get a text message or email if there's water on the floor or pH/temp is out of range

I've thought a lot about this perspective too-what am I missing between the two options? To me it's the *inputs*/monitoring that you are missing with a wifi power strip vs controller.

I want the leak sensors, probes, automated testing, etc. What good is being able to turn off my return pump (with a smart power strip) if I don't know *when* to turn it off?

 

[n2585722]

I've thought a lot about this perspective too-what am I missing between the two options? To me it's the *inputs*/monitoring that you are missing with a wifi power strip vs controller.

I want the leak sensors, probes, automated testing, etc. What good is being able to turn off my return pump (with a smart power strip) if I don't know *when* to turn it off?

i have gone one more step. If there is a leak at the stand I want the controller to turn off the pump and not wait on me. I have it setup to send an alert if that condition occurs. The return type output on the Hydros has a input for a leak detector. You just set it to the leak detector you want to use to turn off the return pump and it will turn the pump off if there is a leak. In fact that same leak detector will turn off my skimmer and the pump on the calcium reactor. The only pumps that continue to run is the in tank flow pumps.

 

[burningmime]

I've thought a lot about this perspective too-what am I missing between the two options? To me it's the *inputs*/monitoring that you are missing with a wifi power strip vs controller.

I want the leak sensors, probes, automated testing, etc. What good is being able to turn off my return pump (with a smart power strip) if I don't know *when* to turn it off?

All automated water testers besides Trident work fine without a controller. There's wireless pH probes too (Hanna makes one). The controller gives the convenience of having it all on one dashboard, but all those probes could be had at a lower price point.

Just my opinion anyways now that I've actually set it up -- the Apex itself does almost nothing for me that I couldn't cobble together from other, much cheaper, pieces, if I had taken the time to research first. The automatic failsafe response is nice, but I'd put my trust in a set of physical failsafes (emergency drain on Bean Animal, Wye Valve, float valve on ATO line, etc) before Apex, especially given the questionable hardware quality I've encountered from Neptune products.

 

[blaxsun]

Everything with my Apex has been “plug ‘n play’. I’ve had very few issues (all minor, quickly resolved), and maybe that places me in the minority. I mean, you can get an entire Apex setup for less than the cost of an Abyzz pump or a few G5 Radions. I’m not saying that Abyzz or EcoTech aren’t worth the investment - just trying to put the cost into perspective.

 

[n2585722]

Things I like (from research).

Hydros
Ability to have multiple ‘brains’.

Nice looking software.

Relatively Cheap.

Apex
Good selection of ancillaries (particularly Trident).

GHL
Generally high quality hardware (although I did have a tank crash thanks to multiple power supply failures).

Things I don’t like:

Hydros
It appears that Hydros is reliant on the cloud for changes (that might be wrong but it still spooks me).

I don’t like their attitude towards documentation (they think that telling you how it works is outdated).

Coralvue/Hydros customer service.

Apex
The design won’t work in my cabinet, so I can’t look at it any further!

GHL
Software is not the greatest.

Support is not the greatest.

Quite expensive.


Strangely it is the things that I don’t like that are causing me issues with my decision making. Customer service could be the deciding factor but, in my opinion, neither GHL or Hydros have got this right yet (and Hydros’ attitude does not encourage me to spend my money there).

I’m seriously considering GHL again, but my mind changes on a daily basis.

They have the manual for the Hydros online here https://www.coralvuehydros.com/product-support/hydros-control/ . If you loose internet the Hydros will continue to work. You can use bluetooth and connect. It will let you turn on and off outputs but it will not let you change the setup of a input or output without internet access. The changes are saved on the cloud when you change something in the setup. I have lousy internet service it is out several times a day. This is not normally an issue. If it does go out I can always wait until it comes back up.

 

[dwest]

The EB832 is not reliable. I’m surprised others haven’t mentioned that.

 

[FishyFishFish]

They have the manual for the Hydros online here https://www.coralvuehydros.com/product-support/hydros-control/ . If you loose internet the Hydros will continue to work. You can use bluetooth and connect. It will let you turn on and off outputs but it will not let you change the setup of a input or output without internet access. The changes are saved on the cloud when you change something in the setup. I have lousy internet service it is out several times a day. This is not normally an issue. If it does go out I can always wait until it comes back up.

That ‘manual’ is missing a mountain of information though (although it does look likes it’s getting a bit better).

It might just be me, but any control device that requires a cloud to setup and alter is not my sort of thing. I would much prefer if I could change it locally.

I’m not suggesting it would happen, but what if Hydros went bankrupt and they shut down the cloud? My Hydros system would immediately become unusable.