It is in balance between input and output.
Sincerely Lasse
Sincerely Lasse
Detritus is it as bad as some make out?
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What is ammonia NH3 & NH4?
the lower the pH in a system the lower the concentration of NH3. a system would need to be running at higher than normal pH in order to increase the amount of NH3 that can be off gassed. any amount lower than normal aquarium pH, the less that this would be occurring. the higher the number of respiratory organisms in a system the harder it is to maintain a NSW pH. the chart is also good at showing why NH3 is kept under control when our organisms are shipped around the world. keeping the pH suppressed from the respiration of the organism in the bag keeps the NH3 from becoming toxic. if ones tank does have a higher than NSW pH it would be releasing more toxic NH3 into the atmosphere.
i can definitely smell the ammonia from my skimmate, so i will stick with running a monster skimmer and pouring out all of that organic material i collect every day into the sink. i know that all of that brown nasty smelly stuff is out of the system and can not be used by any other organism. it has been exported. i can see about how much organic material i am removing every dump of my skimmer bucket.
G~
the lower the pH in a system the lower the concentration of NH3. a system would need to be running at higher than normal pH in order to increase the amount of NH3 that can be off gassed. any amount lower than normal aquarium pH, the less that this would be occurring. the higher the number of respiratory organisms in a system the harder it is to maintain a NSW pH. the chart is also good at showing why NH3 is kept under control when our organisms are shipped around the world. keeping the pH suppressed from the respiration of the organism in the bag keeps the NH3 from becoming toxic. if ones tank does have a higher than NSW pH it would be releasing more toxic NH3 into the atmosphere.
i can definitely smell the ammonia from my skimmate, so i will stick with running a monster skimmer and pouring out all of that organic material i collect every day into the sink. i know that all of that brown nasty smelly stuff is out of the system and can not be used by any other organism. it has been exported. i can see about how much organic material i am removing every dump of my skimmer bucket.
G~
If you can smell NH3 (ammoniac or ammonia gas) from your skimmer cup - you surly degas NH3,
NSF pH today is around 8.15. 68 years ago when I was born - it was around 8.3. My aquaria swings between 8.1 and 8.4 on a daily base. It means that between around 6 to 13 % of the NH3/NH4 complex will be as NH3. This is calculated for 25 degrees C - 26 degrees C will give a little higher % NH3. It's a small amount that will be de gassed in every cycle but my skimmer have a turn over rate on 20 minutes.
Sincerely Lasse
NSF pH today is around 8.15. 68 years ago when I was born - it was around 8.3. My aquaria swings between 8.1 and 8.4 on a daily base. It means that between around 6 to 13 % of the NH3/NH4 complex will be as NH3. This is calculated for 25 degrees C - 26 degrees C will give a little higher % NH3. It's a small amount that will be de gassed in every cycle but my skimmer have a turn over rate on 20 minutes.
Sincerely Lasse
i use a skimmer bucket. my skimmer generally produces about a half gallon a day of skimmate. it is from this bucket that i smell the ammonia. this is mainly from the decomposition of the organic material in the bucket. i run 1000gph through my skimmer for a 300g tank.
i thought from your description that you are not collecting the skimmate, but allow it to go back into the display, is this correct?
G~
i thought from your description that you are not collecting the skimmate, but allow it to go back into the display, is this correct?
G~
It is correct but that is a total other discussion. I try to concentrate on the gas exchange because the question was about that. I´m not complete sure that the NH3 you smell is only from the decomposition. Let us discuss the degassing of NH3 first.
Sincerely Lasse
Sincerely Lasse
Ammonia degassing would be an easy experiment to perform. Just put some saltwater in a bucket and a skimmer. Dump some ammonia in and see if its gone in a few hours.
Yes but pH need to be over 8 and temperature over 25 I do not think it will take some more time that just two hours. The way of working is like this. Start with 1 ppm NH3/NH4 - pH 8 - 25 degree C. -> around 5 % NH3 -> 0.05 ppm. After degassing all that (it happens in a linear mode but I take in step just to explain it better) - you have 0.95 ppm NH3/NH4 left in the water. 5 % will be NH3 -> 0.0475 ppm. Degassing - it is 0.9025 ppm NH3/NH4 -> 5 % of this is 0.045125 ppm Degassing this - 0.857375 ppm left - ans so on. If the pH was 8,5 instead - 15 % will be NH3 at the same temperature. The figures will be 1 ppm - 0,15 ppm NH3 -> 0.85 ppm - 0.1275 ppm NH3 -> 0.7225 ppm and so further. My aquarium have a pH around 8.2 and a temperature at 26 degree C. I normally count with 10 % NH3.
Sincerely Lasse
Well if youd leave it more than a few hours you would need some sort of way to control bacteria. Im not sure if h2o2 would work or would destroy the ammonia.
You can put a tablespoon of kalwasser in there that will destroy almost anything.
why it is a total other discussion? i thought we were discussing ammonia? whether it is from the decomposition of organic material or not is irrelevant to this discussion as we are trying to remove ammonia, correct. whether it is off-gassed like you say, which all skimmers are doing anyway (unless there is something about the way your skimmer is special that i missed, which is entirely possible), or it is being decomposed to ammonia (by the smell) in my bucket from the organic material is not important. it is removed.
in my system ALL of that available "ammonia" in discussion is being removed. in your system you have to wait for the skimmed dumped back into your display to decompose (or be eaten as part of the "ecosystem") before it can be converted to ammonia before the skimmer has a chance at it. i really do not care what the pH of my skimmate bucket as the organic material that will decompose to ammonia is already in there and no longer in my system.
my feeling is that if we are given the ability to remove any organic material that we can, we should. it is far easier to add organic material (food) to a system than it is to remove it after the fact. not many organisms complain about being fed to much. they do complain about being not fed enough because we are trying to control the trophic state of the system. if you have to starve an organism in they system in order to maintain the trophic state, than either the organism was a bad choice or the methods of nutrient controls are not adequate.
G~
It will not give the right result - because it will rise the pH very much and the will for sure degas a lot of NH3. If we should prove that degassing of NH3 takes place at normal pH - this is a shortcut but not usable. At pH 9.5 - 50 % is NH3 and 50 % is NH4.
@Reefin Dude I was answered a question about my thoughts if degassing of NH3 taking place in a normal reef aquaria at all - not about N removing in general - not even if I use it as an way of export.
But if we should look at my system - I normally need all N that circulate in the system - often I had to add extra N. The skimmate is mostly bacteria - bacteria that can feed filtering animals (and corals). You can say that I run the tank skimmerless - the skimmer is only responsible for gas exchange. Not especially NH3 - I most interested to export CO2 during night time - import CO2 during light period and taking away oxygen during light period and adding oxygen during night. The lost of N is for me negative but it is a part of the system
The skimmer is not a part of my export system of organic waste. Other person may have other way of running their tank - but this is mine. There is several ways to skin a cat
Sincerely Lasse
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