Diagnosis and Treatment

[Jay Hemdal]

Also, do you own a business I can support or donate to? You're help has been invaluable not only to my piece of mind but hopefully for my purple tang in the long run as well and neither of us can thank you enough. Whatever the outcome is in my situation, your knowledge and support has kept me positive and excited about this hobby even when dealing with something as frustrating as diseased fish.

Thanks, but no - I don't own a business, I'm the aquarium curator for the Toledo Zoo, but I'm actually retiring this week (more time for R2R!).

I will be publishing my fish disease book in 2022.....

Jay

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I finally got everything setup with a HOB filter I had laying around, water mixed and is currently heating up but is still too cold (74) to acclimate the fish tonight. He seems to be doin ok, his fins look a little better today and he's still super excited when he sees me grab the nori clip. What I thought was a delivery confirmation for the coppersafe was acutaully an email saying its delayed but My salifert test kit only reads up to 2ppm and that's the dose for coppersafe. For this reason alone I'm leaning towards using the cupramine but also know you mentioned the coppersafe is milder and should be here tomorrow. Any thoughts on this? or other benefits to coppersafe as I don't want to cause unnecessary stress to my purple tang but need to start this treatment asap and don't have time to order another test kit within a day. Another big concern I have is going to be ammonia since this is not a cycled QT. I did use microbacter 7. I was going to add the bio media cylinders as well but heard they may absorb the copper so I did not add them. I know I'm being a bit much but your help is so appreciated as I'm a newbie and very worried about my tang.

Tangs are fine in Cupramine. If using that means you can start copper even a day sooner, I would do that.

Do you know the material in the bio media? If it is calcium based, that would be an issue. Still, high ammonia is a real killer. If the bio material is calcium based, but is overgrown with bacteria, you *may* be able to scrub/rinse it in seawater and add that to your QT. I used to do that with sponge filters - squeezing them into a new tank to release some bacteria.

Be sure not to use an ammonia removers / ammonia de-toxifiers with Cupramine. Bacteria additions or water changes only.

Jay

 

[Davisc1293]

I started treatment tonight and the coppersafe did arrive. So I dosed my 16 gal with just 5 ml to start. how slowly do you recommend dosing to bring it up. I'm getting very mixed answers from my research and bottle instructions on dosing amounts. I plan to take the hour drive to my lfs and see if they carry the Hannah checker. also do you recognize these (worms?) on the tangs tale and should this effect how fast I ramp up the dose?

And that's awesome! congrats on your retirement!!! I am looking forward to looking for your book it would most certainly be a benefit to have

 

[Davisc1293]

another stupid question, Some bottled bacteria say they work in both fresh and salt water so some beneficial bacteria must be able to live in both conditions, given this, would a sponge filter from an established freshwater system have any benefit in this QT. ammonia is still a major concern I have.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

another stupid question, Some bottled bacteria say they work in both fresh and salt water so some beneficial bacteria must be able to live in both conditions, given this, would a sponge filter from an established freshwater system have any benefit in this QT. ammonia is still a major concern I have.

I’ve moved sponges from brackish tanks, but never from fresh to full salt so I can’t say if that would work or not.
Jay

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I started treatment tonight and the coppersafe did arrive. So I dosed my 16 gal with just 5 ml to start. how slowly do you recommend dosing to bring it up. I'm getting very mixed answers from my research and bottle instructions on dosing amounts. I plan to take the hour drive to my lfs and see if they carry the Hannah checker. also do you recognize these (worms?) on the tangs tale and should this effect how fast I ramp up the dose?

And that's awesome! congrats on your retirement!!! I am looking forward to looking for your book it would most certainly be a benefit to have

If you know the actual volume of your tank, you can add a full dose of copper right away - but the tank volume and he amount of copper needs to be accurately measured.
Jay

 

[Davisc1293]

If you know the actual volume of your tank, you can add a full dose of copper right away - but the tank volume and he amount of copper needs to be accurately measured.
Jay

I used 3 of those seachem 5.3 gal containers of rodi water so thats 15.9 gallons then i marked the level on the tank to maintain that level. but have gotten mixed answers on what levels to actually maintain. the bottle says 5ml per 4 gal which would mean 20ml but the bottle doesn't specify what levels to this will actually give you. I've read to get to 2.5ppm you need to dose closer to 2ml per gallon which would put me closer to 32ml

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I used 3 of those seachem 5.3 gal containers of rodi water so thats 15.9 gallons then i marked the level on the tank to maintain that level. but have gotten mixed answers on what levels to actually maintain. the bottle says 5ml per 4 gal which would mean 20ml but the bottle doesn't specify what levels to this will actually give you. I've read to get to 2.5ppm you need to dose closer to 2ml per gallon which would put me closer to 32ml

When I ran some tests, the 5 ml per 4 gallons gave me around 2.54 ppm. I would follow the label directions.
Jay

 

[DrZoidburg]

I started treatment tonight and the coppersafe did arrive. So I dosed my 16 gal with just 5 ml to start. how slowly do you recommend dosing to bring it up. I'm getting very mixed answers from my research and bottle instructions on dosing amounts. I plan to take the hour drive to my lfs and see if they carry the Hannah checker. also do you recognize these (worms?) on the tangs tale and should this effect how fast I ramp up the dose?

And that's awesome! congrats on your retirement!!! I am looking forward to looking for your book it would most certainly be a benefit to have

This to me looks like a cat hair stuck in his scalpel.

 

[Davisc1293]

This to me looks like a cat hair stuck in his scalpel.

I think you nailed it! I almost always see a stray hair or two from my dog floating around the tank. I did manage to hold him in my hand and pluck it off. Seems to be exactly what it was lol.

 

[Davisc1293]

I've added 15 ml of the 20 I was supposed to add according to the bottle and checked levels at 10 and 15ml. At 10ml levels were 1.22 and 15ml 1.92 on Hannah checker. should I still add the last 5ml? I hear to aim for 2.5 I also heard not go go over 2.

 

[Davisc1293]

using fritz turbo start i noticed the ammonia badge went from safe to alert back to safe in less then 24 hours. after testing nitrites it was around 1ppm i did a 50% water change to bring it down should I do another 50% in the morning or let it run its course. both fish still active and eating copper levels are 1.9 currently

 

[Jay Hemdal]

using fritz turbo start i noticed the ammonia badge went from safe to alert back to safe in less then 24 hours. after testing nitrites it was around 1ppm i did a 50% water change to bring it down should I do another 50% in the morning or let it run its course. both fish still active and eating copper levels are 1.9 currently

A full dose of coppersafe will raise your ammonia level temporarily by about 0.50 ppm Ammonia-N. Multiple that by 1.21 if your test just reads Ammonia, not Ammonia-N

My tests indicate that coppersafe, at a full dose with run about 2.5 ppm. You need to dose according to the label instructions.

Jay

 

[Davisc1293]

Should i be doing daily 50% wc too keep nitrites low or will that just drag out the cycle?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Should i be doing daily 50% wc too keep nitrites low or will that just drag out the cycle?

You don’t need to worry about nitrite, that is non-toxic to marine fish at any level that is naturally encountered. Ammonia is the real killer, you need to keep that below 0.25 ppm if the pH is above 8.
Jay

 

[Davisc1293]

You don’t need to worry about nitrite, that is non-toxic to marine fish at any level that is naturally encountered. Ammonia is the real killer, you need to keep that below 0.25 ppm if the pH is above 8.
Jay

I took a trip to the lfs and bit the bullet on 8 lbs of live rock that ill ultimately throw away after treatment as well as a new sponge filter in a desperate atempt to find a way to lower nitrites... after a 50% wc it was still around .5 .... i wouldnt have gotten the live rock or even done the second wc had i known that about nitrites. But i guess it cant hurt as long as i monitor the copper closely.

 

[Davisc1293]

one week down and both fish seem happy and are eating a lot. I've found I need to add almost .6 ml a day to maintain a level of 2.5 does this sound normal? I assume I should be adding coppersafe to maintain the levels but the directions don't say much on this other then to treat water changes.

And another off topic question, seeing I'm already going to the extent of treating the fish and running the tank fallow for 90 days. I don't want to add anything after without quarantining . I plan to get a clown pair from my lfs but when should I get them? should I add them to the QT now while there is still coper in there or should I wait the 90 days add the 2 fish I have now to the dt and then qt the clown pair for 30 days and only treat with copper if necessary.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

one week down and both fish seem happy and are eating a lot. I've found I need to add almost .6 ml a day to maintain a level of 2.5 does this sound normal? I assume I should be adding coppersafe to maintain the levels but the directions don't say much on this other then to treat water changes.

And another off topic question, seeing I'm already going to the extent of treating the fish and running the tank fallow for 90 days. I don't want to add anything after without quarantining . Exult I plan to get a clown pair from my lfs but when should I get them? should I add them to the QT now while there is still coper in there or should I wait the 90 days add the 2 fish I have now to the dt and then qt the clown pair for 30 days and only treat with copper if necessary.

Needing to add copper is a result of it being absorbed by the live rock. You just need to test and accurately redose.
Personally, I would get these fish through this issue and then quarantine the new clowns later on.
Jay

 

[Davisc1293]

On day 22 of QT, testing daily and copper levels have never dropped bellow 2.45. Today I watched my purple tang rub on the rocks for a few minutes which was concerning to say the least. Is this normal this far along treatment?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

On day 22 of QT, testing daily and copper levels have never dropped bellow 2.45. Today I watched my purple tang rub on the rocks for a few minutes which was concerning to say the least. Is this normal this far along treatment?

A fish scratching while in copper, especially tangs, may just be a sign of irritation. However, it is also a primary symptom of flukes, another common disease that has to be dealt with during the quarantine process- usually with praziquantel after the copper.
Jay