Diagnosis for Royal Gramma?

[4ktvs]

So I took a video of what seems like scratching against the glass instead of the rock. My Clownfish hasn't really seemed quite right the last day or two, but for now hasn't thrown up food or scrached himself like the Royal Gramma has. I did a %30 water change today because it's been two weeks since the last one and that seemed to stress the fish.

The tank has only been running less than a month and has always held it's cycle since it finished. Both fish come from same LFS tank. There are no other fish in this tank nor have there ever been. I'm rather new to keeping saltwater fish myself. I'd rather not needlessly stress the fish with a treatment that would never work or is considered to be ineffective. So any advice or possible diagnosis/treatment from those more experienced than I would be helpful.

Link to video -

 

[vetteguy53081]

There appears to be an outbreak of ich not to mention and aggressive behavior from the clown towards the gramma. It would be best to quarantine the fish for treatment and isolate the clown within the QT tank with use of acclimation box or net breeder box.
Copper safe or Copper power are your best treatment and leave the display tank WITHOUT any fish at least 6-8 weeks to assure any cysts have died off. Prior to returning fish to display, Siphon the tank well.
Increase oxygen during treatment and maintain good water quality in the QT tank

 

[Jay Hemdal]

In video #1, what is the white stuff coming off of the fish - feces?

Jay

I think it's more like ich because the Royal Gramma has broken out in spots all over the place.

Video:

Very difficult to see as the fish was mostly out of focus. I think I can see some spots of ich on its head. If so, then copper is the treatment of choice, are you set up to do that?
Jay

 

[4ktvs]

In video #1, what is the white stuff coming off of the fish - feces?

Jay

Very difficult to see as the fish was mostly out of focus. I think I can see some spots of ich on its head. If so, then copper is the treatment of choice, are you set up to do that?
Jay

I don't yet have another tank set up. I bought a 10G tank on sale though and can use it in setting up a QT. What copper medication is best to get for this?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I don't yet have another tank set up. I bought a 10G tank on sale though and can use it in setting up a QT. What copper medication is best to get for this?

I prefer coppersafe myself, but other people use Cupramine or copper power. You should also have a good copper test kit. Setting up a QT on the fly can be tricky, you’ll need to establish a biofilter to keep the ammonia level down. Bacteria in a bottle products like Dr Tim’s will need to be used.
Jay

 

[Suohhen]

On a qt tank you can use Seachem Prime to quell the accumulation of ammonia and nitrate but as Jay said a product like dr tims or other live bacteria as well. Don't use a product with dormant bacteria. Like I said I personally would use chloroquine phosphate to be safe and doesn't require a test kit like copper but is certainly less effective than copper against ich. I just feel from your descriptions that it might very well be velvet. The issue is it has been a long time but that is kind of how this goes. They get sick/stressed from one thing and then comes on the next.
Ultimately you are the one on the best position to judge since you can see it with your own eyes so read up on velvet and ich and make your own call.

Velvet (Amyloodinium ocellatum)

Marine Velvet Disease (Amyloodinium ocellatum) What You Need To Know: * Fast killing parasite capable of wiping out most of your fish in just a matter of days. Sometimes there are survivors, sometimes not. * Can be treated in a quarantine tank using Chloroquine phosphate or Copper. A 5...

www.reef2reef.com

Ich (Cryptocaryon irritans)

Marine Ich (Cryptocaryon irritans) What You Need To Know: * Mild fish parasite which is often managed by using a UV Sterilizer, Ozone, Diatom Filter, Oxydator, herbal remedies, enhanced nutrition, etc. etc. * Can be treated in a quarantine tank using Hyposalinity, Chloroquine, Copper or...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[4ktvs]

I think the Royal Gramma is a goner. I ordered a copper test kit online, but it won't be here until tomorrow. With a zoom in camaera I can see many spots, but they mostly won't show up in an actual picture as the movement+lighting creates too much blur. If this is velvet waiting until then would be bad.

Should I just set this up now and put the clownfish in with copper without being able to test it? Because it seems like this outbreak is the more risky option at this point.

 

[Suohhen]

Sorry about the Gramma. Copper can absorb into things but as long as you minimize the amount of stuff in the tank and stay on the safe end of the dose you'll be fine and then you can adjust when the test shows up.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I think the Royal Gramma is a goner. I ordered a copper test kit online, but it won't be here until tomorrow. With a zoom in camaera I can see many spots, but they mostly won't show up in an actual picture as the movement+lighting creates too much blur. If this is velvet waiting until then would be bad.

Should I just set this up now and put the clownfish in with copper without being able to test it? Because it seems like this outbreak is the more risky option at this point.

Just be sure to dose according to the actual water volume, not he “rated” volume of the tank. Measure the water length, width and depth in inches and then divide by 231 to get gallons.
Jay

 

[4ktvs]

Just be sure to dose according to the actual water volume, not he “rated” volume of the tank. Measure the water length, width and depth in inches and then divide by 231 to get gallons.
Jay

I made sure to measure the amount of water I put in and calculated it that way. I decided to take some of the biofilter out of the DT and put it inside the QT. I also used a cup instead of net to gently transfer the clown fish.

Sadly the Royal Gramma did not make it. Found him dead today and it was sad. Now that I have a QT set up I plan on putting all future fish though the process so this hopefully doesn't happen again. For now though I just hope this works on the clownfish.

The instructions say 14 days for copper, but here I've read 30 days so I will plan on doing that unless otherwise advised.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I made sure to measure the amount of water I put in and calculated it that way. I decided to take some of the biofilter out of the DT and put it inside the QT. I also used a cup instead of net to gently transfer the clown fish.

Sadly the Royal Gramma did not make it. Found him dead today and it was sad. Now that I have a QT set up I plan on putting all future fish though the process so this hopefully doesn't happen again. For now though I just hope this works on the clownfish.

The instructions say 14 days for copper, but here I've read 30 days so I will plan on doing that unless otherwise advised.

I typically use Coppersafe for 30 days. I feel that 14 days is too short of a time for that med. I can't tell you if Cupramine or Copper Power can be used with just 14 days or not, however, if the fish seem stable in those meds, I'd opt for 30 days for that as well.

Jay

 

[4ktvs]

I typically use Coppersafe for 30 days. I feel that 14 days is too short of a time for that med. I can't tell you if Cupramine or Copper Power can be used with just 14 days or not, however, if the fish seem stable in those meds, I'd opt for 30 days for that as well.

Jay

I will just do 30 days with the Cupramine then unless I see signs that after 14 days the clownfish is not doing well. I'm hoping the copper test kit will be fine even though the packaging was damaged and open. The bottle was at least sealed so it should work correctly.

One thing I'm worried about is the HOB I brought is quite over sized and rated for a 50 gallon tank. The clownfish seems okay so far and swims into the area the water dumps into the tank at, but I can't confirm yet if there is an area of low current he can rest in.

 

[Suohhen]

I would not think a 50 hob on a 10 would cause too much turbulence but if you're concerned you can cap a piece of pvc for them.

 

[4ktvs]

I would not think a 50 hob on a 10 would cause too much turbulence but if you're concerned you can cap a piece of pvc for them.

The clownfish really seems to like being in the trubulence. Health wise he seems to be doing better other than not eating as much.

 

[Suohhen]

yeah he seems to be a pretty active swimmers, not typical for any of the clowns I've ever kept but my tank is 100g so they are certainly never at the top of the totem pole. But yeah exercise is always good for maintaining proper health, at least for us humans. Sorry again about the Gramma and I'm glad to see the clown is doing better. Your certainly well committed to the health of your fish and that is something I much appreciate!

 

[4ktvs]

yeah he seems to be a pretty active swimmers, not typical for any of the clowns I've ever kept but my tank is 100g so they are certainly never at the top of the totem pole. But yeah exercise is always good for maintaining proper health, at least for us humans. Sorry again about the Gramma and I'm glad to see the clown is doing better. Your certainly well committed to the health of your fish and that is something I much appreciate!

After feeding today the water has gotten cloudy and the clownfish for the past 4 hours since has stayed near the bottom out of the higher flow. I think I waited too long before removing the uneaten food. The Ammonia now reads at 0.25 and I wonder how water changes should be handled with dosing copper. Because as of now the copper test kit says it's at 0.5 ppm if I am reading it right.

 

[Suohhen]

You'd want to get the water change to the same cu level but I'd recommend dosing Prime asap instead.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

You'd want to get the water change to the same cu level but I'd recommend dosing Prime asap instead.

There is some suspicion that prime reacts badly with amine based copper products - Cupramine for sure, but possibly copper safe and copper power as well.
Jay

 

[Jay Hemdal]

After feeding today the water has gotten cloudy and the clownfish for the past 4 hours since has stayed near the bottom out of the higher flow. I think I waited too long before removing the uneaten food. The Ammonia now reads at 0.25 and I wonder how water changes should be handled with dosing copper. Because as of now the copper test kit says it's at 0.5 ppm if I am reading it right.

What are you measuring the ammonia with? Some tests aren’t very accurate, and your .25 reading could be low.
Water changes can be done by just replacing the proportional amount of copper for the exact amount of new water you are adding. Bacteria n a bottle will give long term relief from high ammonia.
Jay

 

[Suohhen]

There is some suspicion that prime reacts badly with amine based copper products - Cupramine for sure, but possibly copper safe and copper power as well.
Jay

Interesting, are there any good alternatives or just the good ol' water change?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Interesting, are there any good alternatives or just the good ol' water change?

No, all of the ammonia removers have the potential to cause this. Trouble is, the only way to test for this is to try it and see if the fish die, and I’m just not set up for that type of experimenting....so it remains just a theory.
Jay