Did anyone have trouble managing nitrates before having corals?

[sanzz18]

Like the title, having a little difficulty keeping nitrates down in my 1 1/2 year old 180g tank. I don't really have much corals yet as I am trying to trouble shoot why I am unable to keep any acros besides one. I only have that one acro thriving, a Monti cap doing well, and GSP. Thank tank will be SPS/acro dominant once I can keep them.

So, I don't have many corals up-taking nutrients. I got chaeto growing in my sump extremely well, my Neptune dos doing 3 gallons AWC daily (roughly 12% weekly minus small percentage lost for daily changes), regal 200 int (probably can be tuned better), and 160lbs of LR. I thought between those export methods that I would be able to keep it steady and not have to do additional water changes to keep nitrates from being on a slow trend up.

My biggest thing is avoiding to have to do additional manual water changes when the whole purpose of the daily AWC was to make manuals not needed.

Did anyone have this issue until you got enough coral to help with the nutrient uptake?

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

Auto water changes can be time savers when your parameters are stable but generally don't have the same effect as a larger manual WC when you're dealing with something that's out of whack, like wanting to significantly reduce nitrates.

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

Like the title, having a little difficulty keeping nitrates down in my 1 1/2 year old 180g tank. I don't really have much corals yet as I am trying to trouble shoot why I am unable to keep any acros besides one. I only have that one acro thriving, a Monti cap doing well, and GSP. Thank tank will be SPS/acro dominant once I can keep them.

So, I don't have many corals up-taking nutrients. I got chaeto growing in my sump extremely well, my Neptune dos doing 3 gallons AWC daily (roughly 12% weekly minus small percentage lost for daily changes), regal 200 int (probably can be tuned better), and 160lbs of LR. I thought between those export methods that I would be able to keep it steady and not have to do additional water changes to keep nitrates from being on a slow trend up.

My biggest thing is avoiding to have to do additional manual water changes when the whole purpose of the daily AWC was to make manuals not needed.

Did anyone have this issue until you got enough coral to help with the nutrient uptake?

Where are your phosphates? Have you read about carbon dosing?

 

[Sumo Reef]

Are your Alk and pH stable?

 

[sanzz18]

Auto water changes can be time savers when your parameters are stable but generally don't have the same effect as a larger manual WC when you're dealing with something that's out of whack, like wanting to significantly reduce nitrates.

Yeah I understand. I just thought between the refugium and AWC, it would hold the value a little better.

My nitrates were at 10 at the end of april and has steadily risen to 20 as of last week. AWC going that whole time. Looks like I am going to have to do a couple 45g waterchanges.

Where are your phosphates? Have you read about carbon dosing?

Phosphates are typically 0.1-0.15, nitrates are currently 20. Really my goals are no higher then 10 for nitrates and 0.1 max for phosphates.

I have read about carbon dosing and actually initiated it last year but had a bad case ofcyano. It seemed to fuel it up more. I never went back to it.

Are your Alk and pH stable?

Alk hangs around 7.5-7.9 (where I want it to more or less stay at), pH I want to work on getting it higher and stay around 8.3-8.4 (currently swings from 7.8-8.1). I would like it above 8 at all times.

 

[Sumo Reef]

Phosphates are typically 0.1-0.15, nitrates are currently 20. Really my goals are no higher then 10 for nitrates and 0.1 max for phosphates.

I have read about carbon dosing and actually initiated it last year but had a bad case ofcyano. It seemed to fuel it up more. I never went back to it.

Phosphates are way too high. That should ideally be around .01 - .03

Carbon dosing too much will lower both nitrates and phosphates to undetectable levels which cyano loves (debated). Try dosing again while watching PO4 and getting it between .01 - .03

Mind the Redfield ratio

 

[sanzz18]

Phosphates are way too high. That should ideally be around .01 - .03

Carbon dosing too much will lower both nitrates and phosphates to undetectable levels which cyano loves (debated). Try dosing again while watching PO4 and getting it between .01 - .03

Mind the Redfield ratio

The more and more reading I do on peoples tanks, The more I am seeing that 0.1 or lower seems to be accepted these days and tanks thrive (I know every tank functions different at different levels). I definitely need to lower mine regardless.

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

The more and more reading I do on peoples tanks, The more I am seeing that 0.1 or lower seems to be accepted these days and tanks thrive (I know every tank functions different at different levels). I definitely need to lower mine regardless.

Your nutrient levels really don't sound all that bad...maybe a little high but really not terrible...

 

[Sumo Reef]

I will quote this reply regarding PO4...

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/how-much-phosphate-is-too-much.139738/post-4942580

Few things...

First, do not be so quick to expect the same results as people who have tanks less than a year old - most of the time, just having a more mature tank is what led to any beneficial things and not probably any acute change. In older tanks where a long period of growth and health can be observed, then acute changes are more likely to take a shape that is repeatable.

Second, there are all kinds of statements like "good growth" and "good color" but these are all subjective. You can have good growth and color with elevated levels, but if you have never see how fast stuff can grow at NSW type of parameters for an extended period of time, then most people do not know what they do not know. If you are happy with what you are doing, then stick with it... any growth and good color is pretty cool. I would not chase a number based on other people.

Third, there are some tanks with very high P levels that float around the internet as "see, you can have high phosphate" examples. However, none of these tanks got that way with super high phosphates... the critical mass of growth and coralline algae deposits were from a period of lower phosphates... maybe not super low, but still lower in a more normal range. It is important to know the whole history when you look at tanks like this and not just go looking for what you want to find.

Fourth, having an absolute number is not a big deal. The availability and "throughput" are what is important. I have only about .005 to .01P in my tank, but there is always some for the corals to use as building blocks.

Fifth, higher levels of phosphate are known to inhibit calcification. This is pretty much a proven fact. If you have elevated levels of phosphate, then your stuff is growing slower than it could be. However, this might be no issue at all to some people who do not care for lots of growth. I personally cannot get coralline to grow all over the place very well with P over .1, but under that, it will completely cover my front glass in a month if I let it. I can take plates off of the back wall as thick as monti caps.

 

[Tamberav]

I would not try to control nutrients on such a large tank with water changes.

The one down side about auto water changes and it doesn’t clean out debris. I think of it more as a way to add some trace elements back. Not for controlling nutrients.

0.1 po4 and lower is okay. Personally I like 0.05-0.08. Somewhere right in the middle of acceptable ranges since we use hobby grade test kits anyways.

If nutrients are creeping up then increase export through some means. Carbon dosing, algae scrubber, Filter roller, manual cleaning of debris, etc. I know you have cheato and a skimmer, but you may need something more effective for the bioload/feeding or just something additional.

Coral growth does use nutrients but if you are going straight to acros then you need stable parameters including nutrients from the get go. I suppose someone who transitions from softies and LPS over to acros slowly still has the other corals growing and using nutrients while they make a slow switch and the tank matures. Just thoughts.

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

Yeah it would probably be easier if you transitioned up the difficulty ladder but that's your choice...as for your nutrient levels, you have a variety of anecdotal evidence to choose between which again you have to decide which to follow

 

[BroccoliFarmer]

It might be as easy as increasing your cheato photo period by an hour

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

Wait, your nitrates are only 20??
That is totally fine for some coral (although I keep my nitrates higher since my LPS prefer dirtier water).
With nitrates at 20, just make some modest changes... Increase light to the fuge, reduce feeding, etc. Is it possible that something died recently?
Certainly monitor all parameters for other trends, but unless you're seeing other changes in the tank, like excessive algae growth, etc, drastic changes often do more harm than good. (Reducing N won't do harm, but the methods used might... I know the Redfield ratio is all the rage, but many don't follow it).

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

So, I don't have many corals up-taking nutrients. I got chaeto growing in my sump extremely well, my Neptune dos doing 3 gallons AWC daily (roughly 12% weekly minus small percentage lost for daily changes), regal 200 int (probably can be tuned better), and 160lbs of LR. I thought between those export methods that I would be able to keep it steady and not have to do additional water changes to keep nitrates from being on a slow trend up.

So, let's look at the export methods you've listed.
1. As mentioned by Tamberav, AWC's aren't as efficient at removing things that cause nitrates to increase, like leftover food, other detritus, etc
2. Skimmers remove waste before it has a chance to be broken down into nitrate, but do not remove nitrate directly. So, they can help in the sense of preventing more nitrate, but they won't do anything to reduce what's already in the system. (There is the small percentage of water removed if you skim wet, but this is negligible).
3. Live rock is EXCELLENT at converting ammonia to nitrate, but it takes a long time for it to contribute to DE-nitrification. If your goal is to have biomedia that specifically serves this purpose, I recommend adding something like Seachem Matrix to the sump. It will take several months for the denitrifying bacteria to colonize and grow to a level that is sufficient, but long term is a good way to build that method of nitrate removal into your system.
4. As I mentioned previously, increasing the photoperiod in the fuge will allow the chaeto to grow more rapidly. You can have that area lighted 24/7 if you want.

There are other good ideas mentioned like algae scrubbers, etc, but I only commented here on the items you mentioned in the quote above.

Good luck

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

@Sumo Reef , from the article you quoted:
"Fifth, higher levels of phosphate are known to inhibit calcification... I personally cannot get coralline to grow all over the place very well with P over .1, but under that, it will completely cover my front glass in a month if I let it. I can take plates off of the back wall as thick as monti caps."

There's nothing wrong with trying to keep phos lower than 0.1, but you used this article to show that the OP should target around .01 - .03, and it simply does not support that idea.

@sanzz18 , as you have indicated, you have found other sources that agree that somewhat elevated phosphates are fine and that the "redfield ratio" is not gospel. You also said you tried carbon dosing with less than satisfactory results. There are many people with more experience than me, and I know you will follow the advice you think will work best for your tank. My only point here is to again caution you from making drastic changes that may not be needed and may be difficult to maintain.

Post from Randy on this subject: Post in thread '“Balance! Daniel son“ phosphate vs nitrate' https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/“balance-daniel-son“-phosphate-vs-nitrate.919075/post-10327052

 

[ReefGeezer]

20 ppm of nitrate and phosphate at .15 ppm is only marginally high and not an emergency if not causing algae issues. The rising trend could be an issue though. I would think with all of that rock, Cheato, AWS, and a decent skimmer that nutrient control would not be and issue. Obviously, tuning the skimmer better is low hanging fruit, but something is missing. I'd think about carbon dosing. It can reduce available N&P and even export it via the skimmer. I would use vinegar. It does not seem to encourage Cyano as much. Besides encouraging the bacteria everyone thinks about when considering carbon dosing, the additional organic carbon might also help your live rock and Cheato process the N & P.

 

[Sumo Reef]

@Sumo Reef , from the article you quoted:
"Fifth, higher levels of phosphate are known to inhibit calcification... I personally cannot get coralline to grow all over the place very well with P over .1, but under that, it will completely cover my front glass in a month if I let it. I can take plates off of the back wall as thick as monti caps."

There's nothing wrong with trying to keep phos lower than 0.1, but you used this article to show that the OP should target around .01 - .03, and it simply does not support that idea.

@sanzz18 , as you have indicated, you have found other sources that agree that somewhat elevated phosphates are fine and that the "redfield ratio" is not gospel. You also said you tried carbon dosing with less than satisfactory results. There are many people with more experience than me, and I know you will follow the advice you think will work best for your tank. My only point here is to again caution you from making drastic changes that may not be needed and may be difficult to maintain.

Post from Randy on this subject: Post in thread '“Balance! Daniel son“ phosphate vs nitrate' https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/“balance-daniel-son“-phosphate-vs-nitrate.919075/post-10327052

I'm not sure you are reading that correctly? Lower than .1 is ideal, and since he already has a thriving refugium, there should not be that high free phosphate.

I'm not advising on the central question of this post about nitrates but more so attempting to help OP when they say they are unsuccessful at keeping SPS.

Carbon dosing is definitely worth trying again IMO

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

I'm not sure you are reading that correctly? Lower than .1 is ideal, and since he already has a thriving refugium, there should not be that high free phosphate.

I'm not advising on the central question of this post about nitrates but more so attempting to help OP when they say they are unsuccessful at keeping SPS.

Carbon dosing is definitely worth trying again IMO

Understood, and I respect your opinion and advice. But I do disagree that "since he already has a thriving refugium, there should not be that high free phosphate".

True "shoulds" in this hobby are few and far between

 

[Eagle_Steve]

Some things not really looked at that could make this a simple fix or give another means to increase NO3 reduction.

How much cheato is in the fuge? How often is it harvested? What is the photo period? and how much food is going into the tank?

Being as there is a fuge, photo period could be increased. One could also harvest the cheato more often to allow for more growth in the fuge at one time. As well as possibly reducing food or another additive that may be aiding in the increase in NO3.


Edit: The above could also aid in the reduction of PO4 if one of the options is viable, but not in the same amount as NO3 reduction.

 

[sanzz18]

I will quote this reply regarding PO4...

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/how-much-phosphate-is-too-much.139738/post-4942580

A lot of good info in this post. Thanks for the resource.

I would not try to control nutrients on such a large tank with water changes.

The one down side about auto water changes and it doesn’t clean out debris. I think of it more as a way to add some trace elements back. Not for controlling nutrients.

0.1 po4 and lower is okay. Personally I like 0.05-0.08. Somewhere right in the middle of acceptable ranges since we use hobby grade test kits anyways.

If nutrients are creeping up then increase export through some means. Carbon dosing, algae scrubber, Filter roller, manual cleaning of debris, etc. I know you have cheato and a skimmer, but you may need something more effective for the bioload/feeding or just something additional.

Coral growth does use nutrients but if you are going straight to acros then you need stable parameters including nutrients from the get go. I suppose someone who transitions from softies and LPS over to acros slowly still has the other corals growing and using nutrients while they make a slow switch and the tank matures. Just thoughts.

Yeah the range you listed is definitely where I would prefer the phosphate. I will definitely look into increasing export one way or another. I just do not really enjoy softies and only wanted my tank to be maybe 15-20% LPS if that. Although, maybe I should start with some LPS.

Yeah it would probably be easier if you transitioned up the difficulty ladder but that's your choice...as for your nutrient levels, you have a variety of anecdotal evidence to choose between which again you have to decide which to follow

Yeah, I am starting to think that as well.

It might be as easy as increasing your cheato photo period by an hour

I will definitely try it. The amount that my chaeto grows, you would think it would keep the numbers contain as I don't feed particularly heavy for my bio load.

Wait, your nitrates are only 20??
That is totally fine for some coral (although I keep my nitrates higher since my LPS prefer dirtier water).
With nitrates at 20, just make some modest changes... Increase light to the fuge, reduce feeding, etc. Is it possible that something died recently?
Certainly monitor all parameters for other trends, but unless you're seeing other changes in the tank, like excessive algae growth, etc, drastic changes often do more harm than good. (Reducing N won't do harm, but the methods used might... I know the Redfield ratio is all the rage, but many don't follow it).

Nitrates are only 20 yes. I just started reducing nori to every other day (not that would help nitrates as much), all fish are accounted for currently.

I do have this GHA or turf that has started to to fill in a lot of the rock crevices lately. So that is my concern for lowering my nutrient levels.

So, let's look at the export methods you've listed.
1. As mentioned by Tamberav, AWC's aren't as efficient at removing things that cause nitrates to increase, like leftover food, other detritus, etc
2. Skimmers remove waste before it has a chance to be broken down into nitrate, but do not remove nitrate directly. So, they can help in the sense of preventing more nitrate, but they won't do anything to reduce what's already in the system. (There is the small percentage of water removed if you skim wet, but this is negligible).
3. Live rock is EXCELLENT at converting ammonia to nitrate, but it takes a long time for it to contribute to DE-nitrification. If your goal is to have biomedia that specifically serves this purpose, I recommend adding something like Seachem Matrix to the sump. It will take several months for the denitrifying bacteria to colonize and grow to a level that is sufficient, but long term is a good way to build that method of nitrate removal into your system.
4. As I mentioned previously, increasing the photoperiod in the fuge will allow the chaeto to grow more rapidly. You can have that area lighted 24/7 if you want.

There are other good ideas mentioned like algae scrubbers, etc, but I only commented here on the items you mentioned in the quote above.

Good luck

I don't think my skimmer is running efficiently enough to grab the organics before they are reduced to nitrates and phosphates. I either skim way to dry and it takes weeks to fill up the cup, or I skim way to wet and it looks like a light tea. I have difficulty even with minor changes to the skimmer balancing it.

Will definitely increase fuge lighting period for starters.

@Sumo Reef , from the article you quoted:
"Fifth, higher levels of phosphate are known to inhibit calcification... I personally cannot get coralline to grow all over the place very well with P over .1, but under that, it will completely cover my front glass in a month if I let it. I can take plates off of the back wall as thick as monti caps."

There's nothing wrong with trying to keep phos lower than 0.1, but you used this article to show that the OP should target around .01 - .03, and it simply does not support that idea.

@sanzz18 , as you have indicated, you have found other sources that agree that somewhat elevated phosphates are fine and that the "redfield ratio" is not gospel. You also said you tried carbon dosing with less than satisfactory results. There are many people with more experience than me, and I know you will follow the advice you think will work best for your tank. My only point here is to again caution you from making drastic changes that may not be needed and may be difficult to maintain.

Post from Randy on this subject: Post in thread '“Balance! Daniel son“ phosphate vs nitrate' https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/“balance-daniel-son“-phosphate-vs-nitrate.919075/post-10327052

I typically know that more mature tanks with thriving corals are able to handle unique parameters a lot easier then tanks that are 1.5 years old like mine with no corals (started with dry rock).

20 ppm of nitrate and phosphate at .15 ppm is only marginally high and not an emergency if not causing algae issues. The rising trend could be an issue though. I would think with all of that rock, Cheato, AWS, and a decent skimmer that nutrient control would not be and issue. Obviously, tuning the skimmer better is low hanging fruit, but something is missing. I'd think about carbon dosing. It can reduce available N&P and even export it via the skimmer. I would use vinegar. It does not seem to encourage Cyano as much. Besides encouraging the bacteria everyone thinks about when considering carbon dosing, the additional organic carbon might also help your live rock and Cheato process the N & P.

Oh yeah, I know its high but not bad at all. It is however causing GHA or Turf (not identified yet), to show its ugly face. Carbon dosing I am considering again.

I'm not sure you are reading that correctly? Lower than .1 is ideal, and since he already has a thriving refugium, there should not be that high free phosphate.

I'm not advising on the central question of this post about nitrates but more so attempting to help OP when they say they are unsuccessful at keeping SPS.

Carbon dosing is definitely worth trying again IMO

Definitely considering carbon dosing again.