This is a different Reef Tank

[Anchor]

So you say you have converted Ammonia to Nitrite and to Nitrate and then it eliminated the Nitrate too?

 

[Anchor]

OK, what is the material knitted out of?

 

[Henn]

OK, Just for being nice ( trolls ) I will tell you the Secret ( it is already in the Threads some where ). Shade Cloth,,, ever see that movie the Graduate ? The Secret is HDPE Knitted Shade Cloth ( I use 85 % in my Marine Ponds and 400 gph Pond Pumps). Every couple of years, a pump goes out. After the Material is repacked, it needs to start ( the Ribbon Lay has been disturbed. The Bobbins in the ANNEX Filter System ( I just named it ). Are 6 inches by 5 ft. The two are 5 sq ft. This is why it works. The Shade Cloth is Knitted of Ribbons. The ribbons are twisted while knitted. The Twist is to give Shade Cloth Loft. It is what is termed Self Ventilating. The Ribbons ( not from ribbon to adjacent ribbon, instead two ribbons in flat contact ) are in contact and produce uniform rows of double plastic ribbon. It is the area between the Ribbons that harbors the Anaerobic Bacteria. The Diffusion and Osmotic Rates are far superior to a Static Mycological Web in Crushed Coral. The Ribbon Contact can be modeled by holding two Round Bars together at 90 degrees. The actual Contact is almost Zero. Now hold two Frat Paddles together at 90 degrees. There is a big square of area between the paddles. The edges give adequate contact. In rock the Zone is 50 thou deep. The ribbons have a mean distance to the Edge of less. It seems to work, it would be a bummer it the Marine Ponds and Breeding Pens have been dead all this time.
PS>> Stand on one end when you roll a Bobbin, neatness counts. Our slime has taste around here. How are you gonna get em back in the slime, after they've been through here?

 

[Lasse]

I will stay out but I thought that reef2reef was about to discuss, openly and freely, different opinions in reefing. You have in the thread linked attacked me in different ways, personal and that I do not know what I´m talking about. The only thing I have said is that you misinterpret your measurements in the newly started aquarium. You seems not to know that it is impossible to get a right figure of nitrate if there is nitrite in the water. I have not saying anything else about your old system - just that you will not get any denitrification in 7 days in a newly started aquarium - nitrification - yes maybe - but denitrification not.

But advocate for a method and not allow any critical voices sounds very suspected in my ears

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Ltlevil1]

Henn,
I have several questions about this "Septic Tank System" (your words, not mine) I'm also assuming that when you say "frags" that you actually mean frag mounts.

I poisoned the Tank last Sunday with Bad Frags. It was the second load of Frags that caused the Ammonia Poisoning. The Tank was done by 06/26/20 with all cycling. Based on a Nitrate Level of 1. It had peaked at 45 ppm on Wednesday Night. It was down to 4 on Thursday and then 1 on Friday. The Ammonia was zero as was the Nitrite.
What was the original ammonia concentration?

After cleaning off and aging it was time to try this Coral Substitute. Very bad idea. It was apparently still rotting inside and giving off huge amounts of Ammonia. This was not apparent in the 270 gallon Marine Pond. It is now clear why my big Feather Calerpa decided to suddenly die. Right after working with my new Coral Substitute 3 feet up current. The new Cuttle Bone Frags are what was put in on Saturday morning ( 06/27/20 ). At that point the Ammonia showed up. It went up to 3 and stabilized, for 3 days. Today after seeing the same unexplained Ammonia, I actually sort of Yelled, what the heck died in this Tank. At that exact moment it occurred to me that the Cuttle Bone Frags were still rotting. After lifting one up, it wasn't hard to smell the Ammonia wafting off.
So you apparently "aged" this in the 270 gallon pond? You also state you could smell it when lifting it up and that it was so lethal it killed a macro algae after you worked 3' upstream of it. You stated this wasn't noticeable in the 270. So why didn't you smell it when moving from the 270? How is this cuttle bone "rotting" any different than the die-off when live rock is introduced for the first time?

The Coral Gravel in this tank will not be done for weeks. It is not needed.
What is coral gravel? I assume you are talking about aragonite? How do you know it will not be done for weeks? Did this come out of a bag or another cycled system? If it is not needed then why did you put it in to begin with? How do you prove that the Coral Gravel is not where the biofilter is located and that it was not converting available ammonia as fast as it was being produced? Did you perform side by side tests with two exact tanks with the same volume of water and Coral Gravel that came from the same sources?

You state, "While operating FDA Biomedical Labs, Hosting hundreds of Grants ( DARPA NIH ), it quickly becomes vital to write down even the most unlikely results. There are not enough data points for anyone to draw absolute conclusions."
While I agree with the recording of data, if you ran these labs, you would surely know that you would not introduce an additional component to any experiment that could affect the outcome of that experiment unless it was absolutely required to perform he experiment. In which case, several additional experiments would have to performed to determine a base-line for the additional material so that it could be taken into consideration.

The Filter has already been fully tested in 750 gallons of Old Tank, and two Separate 35 Gallon satellite Tubs
Did you have this Coral Gravel in these tanks as well?

The next Tank I do will not have one gram of this low grade gravel dump clay contaminated Aragonite.
So did you go to the local quarry or concrete factory and pick up a scoop of aggregate and just dump it in the tank? Did you not wash this in either RO or salt water?

You posted open questions to any thread follower: If a Seasoned ( 4 days ) Filter Unit is placed in a New Tank ( Bag Water ) where did your position go? Don't try that with your Tank Bottom of Mud.
I'm not sure what position you are referring to.
How exactly does this device perform the nitrogen cycle without the presence of the very thing it depends on to do so? A new tank of bag water would not have any ammonia in it, so how would the filter perform? If the bacteria have nothing to convert what happens to them?

The New Tank Conditioning started Yesterday at 9:00 am. It was an awful blend of half processed Nitrogen Compounds. It started showing improvement in three hours. Whatever is happening is actually moving the Tank back to Hard Coral Water ( just like the first time ). Quoting spot measurements is misleading. The interaction of the Tests is known. Without a Nitrate Reading it was hard to see the last conversion ( aerobic ) before the Nitrate Break Down ( anaerobic ).
Can you quantify what "an awful blend" and "hard coral water" represent? Why is quoting spot measurements misleading? And if it is truly is, why did you do it throughout the thread? Data is data-Period. You either collect it properly or you do not. whether you collect data at regular intervals or at random points, you either collect them properly or not. In your own words "all data is relevant", and this is true. We can't pick and choose which data is right and which is wrong based on our preconceived opinion or hypothesis.

I am always interested in improvements and new developments in this area. Maybe this device works, maybe it doesn't. I'm not even sure of what the device is or how it is constructed. Might I suggest if you really want critical feedback, that you create one thread and record just the facts and the data. It may also help if you were to have someone proof read your information prior to posting. Regardless of how sound the data is, if it is not presented coherently and with at least complete sentences that easily readable, then I'm afraid not many people are going to give it any credence. It also doesn't help that you ask for feed-back and when someone tries to point something out to you, you post comments directed at them personally as opposed to the data they present. If the product works the data will stand on its own. All you have to do is provide the givens and supporting data without your opinions and editorialization.

Now I will provide my own opinion after reading this thread. It does not appear that you have been in the reef hobby for very long. I say this because your use of the terminology to describe many of the components above are not what is generally used in the hobby or industry. For instance, concrete frags, concrete cow patties, coral gravel and marine ponds are not something I have heard before. I am also curious that if you discovered this 5 years ago and you have been running it successfully, then what was the intent of this tank?

 

[Henn]

Hi all, If you liked the last post, this gets better. Thanks a lot for following. Maybe I am mistaken, but isn't this break through important?

Update:
The Tank was done cycling on 07/06/20 and was at basic Zero ( there is some tiny residual stuff or my Macro Algae wouldn't be growing). One reason for releasing the design was knowing from Posts that my 750 total Marine Ponds were better than the Tanks. There is no Nuisance Junk. There is no Nitrate or Nitrite or Ammonia. So, back to the Tank. It was fully Scaped with stuff from the Ponds ( see pictures ). Then I made another set of mistakes that turned out to be great. After the Silt Settled they got a Double Feeding ( 12:00 pm ). The next morning ( 9 hours later ) the readings were high for all three compounds ??? My bad over a basic over site. This Reactor is the only working way to process the water. The Crushed Coral is weeks away from working ( the whole reason here ). In order to run the Unit on one Air Pump, I allowed the Pumping action to fall to 1 gph. The pump is old and must be getting worse. The Air Stone is a vital part of the All Air Design. Without the Current, the Reactors get nothing anyway. Both of the vital functions were running on marginal Air. Instead of figuring this out right away, I made another Unit with Double the amount of Fabric on the Bobbins ( Anybody ready to try one? ). It is in the big Pond running now to get ready. By watching the New Unit Run it was obvious that the Water Flow was huge compared to the Tank Unit. Dang, I found another old Air Pump and used one for each Vital Function. In hours the Ammonia was gone, now I am watching the Nitrite. Once these Units get adequate Air, they do am amazing job. The only Design Modification was taking the Valve ( described ) from the Air Adjustment Balance and putting it in the Scimmer Line ( liquid ). One reason that I ran with less air was to reduce Water Loss by the Scimmer. Now the Filter runs full on and Bypass is controlled by the valve ( 1 drop each 3 seconds to 2 drops per second ). I never should have run if the Air was not enough to at least Hurl 1 drop per second. As is it would not Hurl any water on One Air Pump. It is now doing the job and has already taken the Ammonia down to .1 ppm form 4 ppm in 4 hours. It took only an hour to build the new one. It will be in an Empty Tank ( no Crushed Coral). It will show that straight from the Main Marine Pond it makes a Tank ready instantly. Will it be instant? It will have a decent Air Supply. Empty Tank, Wall Unit Only, Ref Lighting,School of Gold Doubloon Mollies (11 ), like Gold Coins swirling in the water at night.

 

[SPR1968]

It sounds an interesting idea, and concept, but do you have a step by step guide on how this all works and how it’s put together?

 

[Henn]

Hello dear reefers, The Different Tank got a major update today. It now has a 40 gph ( or so ) 12 volt pump on the Filter Bobbins. It had to be, and this is why.
>> After the tank recovered from Ammonia Poisoning ( see my bad ) it was Frag Time. The Frags went in at around 900 am on 07/07/20. When the silt cleared at 12 pm the tank got a double feeding. Everything looked great, until 9 hours later on the morning of 07/08/20. There were elevating Levels of all the bad stuff. After crying and having a Nitrate Tizzy, it occurred to me that the Bubble Stream in the Water Riser was very weak. Presto, a test showed less than 1 gph. At that rate it would take days to just clear. The Tank was producing more Nitrogen Compounds than the Filter could handle. That was when I made a New 10 sq ft Filter ( mentioned ) and started it in the Marine tank. Today it was clear that Air Water Lifts are very sensitive. One minute it is 5 gph and the next it burps and drops to 1 gph. There is no way to tell. Now the Protein Scimmer Top is off and a 12 volt Water Pump ( Mag Impeller ) is on top of the Filter Assembly. Now there is 40 gph of so. In 4 hours the Reading are half. This pump was an old Tank Pump. They run for thousands of hours if left on with Filtered Input Water. This Change is staying on the Different Tank. The Filters Bobbins are still on the Input, so the Tank is still Larval Friendly. The Bobbins are about 4 sq ft ( not 5 ). The new Pump Output is very effective at making Current. That was marginal before. This is now the new standard here. It is now exactly like the Marine Ponds. They have always used Pumps and Fabric. The Protein Cannons run on Air. The Different Tank will need some kind of Scimmer. It need not also Pump and Filter so it will be just like the Big One Outdoors ( see picture of Parent and Child ). The Flow Issue made it clear that the Filters are far more effective than I thought. The Crushed Coral still has weeks to go and the Bobbins have handled all comers. I have Evil Nitrate , On the Ropes. This is not a fair fight,,, hit him from behind while I distract him :>) We can do this. Watch Film Cut ( Legend, ( The Kray's ) Bar Knock down, awesome simulation of my battle with Evil Nitrate. I have the Brass Knuckles, the Snide, but soon to be sorry, Evil Nitrate has a Rolling Pin. My Battle starts with the Joke, Two ANNEX Reactor Cylinders, Roll into a Bar. Please watch for Tips on the Upcoming Show Down ( all the Reefers that build ANNEX Systems are Symbolized by the Bearer of the Sacred Cylinders ( hammers ) to help poor, outmatched Henn.. All the Evil Slime is there, Evil Nitrate ( rolling pin ), Ammonia ( picks up Evil Nitrate, why bother???), Overfeeding, dirty sand, spent Filters, detritus, the whole lot of Dirt Bags. Notice the almost Metaphysical Duality of the Symbolic Hammers, as they teach some manners to that One Time Big Shot. Please watch this Training Film. Make sure that there isn't anything breakable near and practice going Bonkers, Treat me like your Best Friend, who just picked a fight with a Gorilla.

 

[Henn]

The Bobbins are the main function. The dual Bacterial Areas make it work. There is a complete unit in the Thread pictures ( on a wall ). The Marine Pond Pictures of the Bio Pots and Protein Hurler are turning out to be a very close analog of the developing Different Tank. The latest Post shows the small 12 volt Pump. It just didn't have enough Volume with an Air Lift. It was taking Days to run a Tank Through. Now it is a uniform 40 gph or so. This will test the real ability of the Bobbins instead of the Low Flow. The Unit is still made of OTS Foam Filter Parts. The original Scimmer is off and the Pump just pushed on. It is still Larval Friendly and has No Parts that need replacement, ever. The Bobbins have an open Knit and the critters can service it.

 

[Daniel@R2R]

Thanks for sharing!

 

[Henn]

Hi all, the Different Tank just passed another trial. A very messed up Vendor sent me a load of Dried Red Shrimp. The vendor was just a couple of dollars less than the Repto Type Quality always used here for 5 years. What happened is bad enough to record in several other threads. The Tank is great and it totally kicked Evil Nitrate and his minions.

Story:
The only form of feeding here is Graded Size, Suspension Feeding. ( made up but explains the concept )
A neutrally Buoyant Food that has all the nutritional needs for all the Tank Mates ( depends on Tank Mates )
There are Too Many different Types to Target, food must not drop to the floor or float, it must stay suspended until Eaten by somebody
>> It not for this feeding method, the Tank would be Toast right now.
Two days ago a package of Dried Red Shrimp arrived here ( a supposedly decent seller )
Yesterday before getting the Daily Frags for this Tank, I ground up the correct amount of Red Shrimp. The Tank was as perfect as normal ( regular low under .1 type )
This stuff was the Daily Feed for all! Almost instantly after getting two Level Teaspoons, every thing went to ground. The Nitrate was 120 ppm, the Nitrite was 6 ppm, and the Ammonia was 2 ppm. I will spare the details of the next 24 hours, they were not that bad. It was a test of faith. In 12 hours the Nitrate dropped to 50 ppm, the Nitrite was 5 ppm, and the Ammonia ( thankfully ) was .25 ppm. After 6 more hours ( 18 total ) the Readings were, Nitrate 45 ppm, Nitrite 3 ppm, and Ammonia .1 ppm. Enough Already,,, Water Change,,, two cycles of 50 % out, refill, 50% for 100%. The Nitrate Levels were now falling, as were all. In two Hours, I Scaped more Green Star in and moved the Ricordea.
During the Two Hour Wait after the Water Change, I went to the Market and bought 4 Head on Raw Shrimp. After Testing them, grinding them, testing again, There were Zero bad things. The Tanks were Fed and everybody likes the New Chow. It only took one. The cost was $ 1.29 for 4 days chow. Shrimp are Neutrally Buoyant, No Bones or Fat, Plankton Loaded at capture. Everybody here has eaten shrimp Milk for 5 years. It floats to Hidden Stuff and reaches all levels. What is not eaten, is filtered out because it is in the Water Column, it does not fall and foul. If the Poison had not stayed suspended, the water change would not have removed it ( nobody ate the crap in 18 hours ). Resistance is futile, why bother, No Dry Coral Needed, No ICU in the Living Room. At a new Tank each 4 weeks, it just isn't fair.

PS: I added an Air Protein Cannon ( see picture it is behind the Reactor Bobbins). This is now an Exact Replica of the Marine Ponds. Could someone look at the Nitrate Drop and such and compare it to a Regular Technology System.

PPS: Why not a Contest where the ANNEX System gets to put any lingering doubts away. There is a Box of Poison Shrimp sitting here with no purpose. It won't go in the Compost Here. I know how to make Nito Compound Cream. Anybody wanting to test the Unit and Verify the performance can just ask. The complete new Unit has 10 sq ft of fabric. The Unit here has 4 Sq Ft. Please compare the Nitrate Drop and Guess at the Max Gallon the Bigger Unit could handle. The Whole Different Tank ( minus free Frags and Pond stuff, Gorgonia ) was under $100 if everything is new. Could anybody do as well for an entire System? It is not clear what ,if anything, needs to be added. I have Canister Reactors and all kinds of stuff. They didn't work well enough for my babies. All that replacing stuff.

If you want something like Charcoal, just use Poly Planting Bags. They suck up Protein and Oil, fine filter, and unlike that horrid Carbon Crap, they wash up in Dawn. A hot dry and ( Renewable Carbon). The Protein Cannon stopped the Need To Chemically Scrub with activated Polyester. There seems to be a lot of Nervous Energy available to complicate. Is anybody tired yet? Me, I never get tired when the end is in sight. If the Decomp Rates are better, so is the Tank. What Algae, what Disease, what pests? If there is ever a reason for any Tech, it happens instantly. My Guests are more important than any Dogma. Sometimes that is not the case with new ideas. Perhaps at some time Reef 2 Reef will take an active role in disseminating this Technology it is there for the Recognizance. This is what I did for a living for 40 years. Over 100 DOD and DARPA Grants. It would be nice to earn some JOSS before the Boatman calls ( they don't take Visa or American Express ). I have never been a front man anyway.

 

[Henn]

Hi all, The tank has really settled in after having some issues. Today I scored three Peppermint Shrimp ( great size and color ). They are the final Cleaning Crew Members. The Mollies and the Shrimp are all that is needed. The same place has a Green Duncan Mother they are going to frag for me ( 5 polyp for front left ). That will be it for this Tank. Now it's Grow Out and Groom.