Dinoflagellates – Are You Tired Of Battling Altogether?

[fishbox]

Well my dinos vanished before I could get a sample for the microscope.

Same here! Came home yesterday to order my microscope but the tank looks great! I still have a couple spots with a light dusting of brown but I can actually see my sandbed and the rocks look great too [emoji23]

Some history:
Tank is a 1yr old 40G breeder with a 20g sump and and was very opposite of a ULN. In fact I would call it an UHN tank. Up until recently I had no nutrient export methods except my 20% weekly water changes. When the Dino outbreak started my nitrates were too high to register on my Red Sea test kit which I think maxes out at 100 and my Po4 was too high to register on my Hanna ULR kit which maxes out at 0.613.

About two months ago I added a skimmer and started blasting the sand and rock with a turkey baster. Did a 3 day dark phase and tried dosing H2O2. Although the skimmer helped with the nutrients none of this did anything for the Dinos except aggravate them because they got worse! Then I built a cheato reactor and again it helped with the nutrients but did nothing for the Dinos. Last weekend I added a filter sock and a small 3 watt UV sterilizer. I know that the sterilizer is very undersized for my tank but thought what the heck as it couldn't hurt. Well it musta done something cause my tank looks great today. Also, after adding all these things to help with nutrients, my nitrates as of last weekend were down to 10 and my Po4 was down to 0.129. So I'm very pleased and excited but still need to keep an eye on the couple spots with the light dusting. So I still might order the scope just in case.

 

[five.five-six]

Whoa. That's new. It really looks like gambierdiscus, a genus that's well researched, but not seen in the hobby since Pants ID them in a tank back before 2014.
Could also be a weird form of ostreopsis (o. Lenticularis is very flattened like that).
The movement makes me lean ostreopsis, the egg yolk like center makes me lean gambierdiscus. Hard to say.
Regardless, treat it like ostreopsis.

They don’t really favor the sand bed, though there is some on the sand bed. They just seem fo form a gell over everything with strings comeing off. The strings are remarkably strong while both the strings and the gell is very easy to siphon off.

I have been doing weekly siphoning into a special filter sock contraption made. It’s a 5” sock wrapped in several layers of paper towel inside a 7” sock. The Dino’s can blow right through the 100 micron 5” sock, the paper towels and the 200 micron 7” sock but they really love to stick to the paper towels and that’s how I export them.

Do you have a link for ostreopsis specific treatments?

 

[bh750]

Yeah, in my linked posts, yours was one of the success accounts I pointed to. Sorry you got a relapse.

There's another strain of amphidinium that shows up in people's tanks and is like 1/5th the diameter of these, and it swims more actively, going into the water. People have reduced it with uv.

Some people aren't wanting to do water changes. This gives them that option. And some people want to keep their sand beds - like me. This method tries to protect some sandbed diversity.

Yes, grow other things, while removing Dinos until Dinos are pushed out or run down or burn out.

Got it. Ok so Im afraid to ask a dumb question, but Amphidinium can be beat with water changes? I didnt know that.

Also another one, does Amphidinium ever leave the sand bed and go into the water column, ie at night?

 

[bh750]

Same here! Came home yesterday to order my microscope but the tank looks great! I still have a couple spots with a light dusting of brown but I can actually see my sandbed and the rocks look great too [emoji23]

Some history:
Tank is a 1yr old 40G breeder with a 20g sump and and was very opposite of a ULN. In fact I would call it an UHN tank. Up until recently I had no nutrient export methods except my 20% weekly water changes. When the Dino outbreak started my nitrates were too high to register on my Red Sea test kit which I think maxes out at 100 and my Po4 was too high to register on my Hanna ULR kit which maxes out at 0.613.

About two months ago I added a skimmer and started blasting the sand and rock with a turkey baster. Did a 3 day dark phase and tried dosing H2O2. Although the skimmer helped with the nutrients none of this did anything for the Dinos except aggravate them because they got worse! Then I built a cheato reactor and again it helped with the nutrients but did nothing for the Dinos. Last weekend I added a filter sock and a small 3 watt UV sterilizer. I know that the sterilizer is very undersized for my tank but thought what the heck as it couldn't hurt. Well it musta done something cause my tank looks great today. Also, after adding all these things to help with nutrients, my nitrates as of last weekend were down to 10 and my Po4 was down to 0.129. So I'm very pleased and excited but still need to keep an eye on the couple spots with the light dusting. So I still might order the scope just in case.

Great to hear. So it sounds like your dinos were just on the sandbed? Or elsewhere. Were you able to successfully ID them?

 

[bh750]

They don’t really favor the sand bed, though there is some on the sand bed. They just seem fo form a gell over everything with strings comeing off. The strings are remarkably strong while both the strings and the gell is very easy to siphon off.

I have been doing weekly siphoning into a special filter sock contraption made. It’s a 5” sock wrapped in several layers of paper towel inside a 7” sock. The Dino’s can blow right through the 100 micron 5” sock, the paper towels and the 200 micron 7” sock but they really love to stick to the paper towels and that’s how I export them.

Do you have a link for ostreopsis specific treatments?

Man, I havent seen the slimy ones in a long time, before I found this thread. I'll have to dig up a picture from like 5-6 years ago when me entire tank was covered with snotty slime rising inches up. So I'm not sure which ones those are??

For treatment, check out Matt's first page of this thread where everything is pretty up to date.

 

[five.five-six]

My disagreement with what you're saying is that the dinos being introduced unknowingly is the problem whereas I believe the dino problem stems from the desire for reefers to have complete control over nutrients (ULNS) and the use of algaecides and bacterial additives that allow the dinos to overpopulate to a point where they become a nuisance.

You are probably exactly correct. Anecdotally, I had a small patch of Dino’s on a rock that I had mounted a a frag on. I’d. Take the rock out every now and again and scrub them off. This stayed static for over a month when one day I decided to clean up my patches of cyano with chemiclean and increase my CUC to get more of the green alage. This worked very well, all the cyano and much of the green alage was gone within a few days. And that’s when the Dino’s hit with a vengeance.

Now I am way over feeding the tank and exporting as much of the dino mass as I can. Seems to be working.

 

[fishbox]

Great to hear. So it sounds like your dinos were just on the sandbed? Or elsewhere. Were you able to successfully ID them?

Didn't get a chance to ID them. I was coming home to order my scope to get a positive ID and found my tank looking healthy. And no they weren't just on the SB. These guys were on EVERYTHING. The rocks, pumps, thermometer, my zoas, and much more. I wish I would have taken a before picture because my tank was a snotty slimy mess

 

[taricha]

Tank is a 1yr old 40G breeder with a 20g sump and and was very opposite of a ULN. In fact I would call it an UHN tank. Up until recently I had no nutrient export methods except my 20% weekly water changes.

I would have loved to see scope pics of what actually was dominating in a tank with those conditions.
It would shock me if it was the same stuff that springs up in our ULN systems.

The Dino’s can blow right through the 100 micron 5” sock, the paper towels and the 200 micron 7” sock but they really love to stick to the paper towels and that’s how I export them.

Stringy dinos like to grab onto rough surfaces in high flow, some people (me) have exported them that way with a filter floss hung like a flag waving in the flow in front of a powerhead.
Also most of our dinos are more than 20 microns across. Lots of paper towels have holes smaller than that and would catch the majority of them. So it's not a terrible idea, and would work in many cases.

Got it. Ok so Im afraid to ask a dumb question, but Amphidinium can be beat with water changes? I didnt know that.

Also another one, does Amphidinium ever leave the sand bed and go into the water column, ie at night?

I don't think the water changes are a definite YES or NO. In some cases, I'd recommend stopping them, in others I'd recommend doing them.
Here's how I think about it.
If you have green algae present and growing in the system and dinos present - then stopping water changes (while keeping P & N up) can cause a resource competition for minor elements that will disfavor the dinos.
If you have been doing no water changes and have no algae growth, slow or non-existent coral growth, and dinos present with everything static, then no water changes will just keep the system locked down in stasis and continue to enforce the stranglehold that dinos already have on the system. In this case water changes (plus other remediation) will be necessary to push the system forward and let things progress.

The Large Cell Amphidinium is the one strain that we know does not go into the water column - ever - and won'd be touched by UV/micron filter/whatever. At night it goes below the sand surface, so the sand is lighter in the morning just like with species that go into the water.

 

[fishbox]

I would have loved to see scope pics of what actually was dominating in a tank with those conditions.
It would shock me if it was the same stuff that springs up in our ULN systems.


Stringy dinos like to grab onto rough surfaces in high flow, some people (me) have exported them that way with a filter floss hung like a flag waving in the flow in front of a powerhead.
Also most of our dinos are more than 20 microns across. Lots of paper towels have holes smaller than that and would catch the majority of them. So it's not a terrible idea, and would work in many cases.


I don't think the water changes are a definite YES or NO. In some cases, I'd recommend stopping them, in others I'd recommend doing them.
Here's how I think about it.
If you have green algae present and growing in the system and dinos present - then stopping water changes (while keeping P & N up) can cause a resource competition for minor elements that will disfavor the dinos.
If you have been doing no water changes and have no algae growth, slow or non-existent coral growth, and dinos present with everything static, then no water changes will just keep the system locked down in stasis and continue to enforce the stranglehold that dinos already have on the system. In this case water changes (plus other remediation) will be necessary to push the system forward and let things progress.

The Large Cell Amphidinium is the one strain that we know does not go into the water column - ever - and won'd be touched by UV/micron filter/whatever. At night it goes below the sand surface, so the sand is lighter in the morning just like with species that go into the water.

Well I still have a light dusting. So for the sake of helping science in this battle I'll go ahead and order the scope. However I might just killed off the species that thrived in those conditions and I might just be left with something else now. Either way I'll get the scope and try to see what's left

 

[taricha]

Well I still have a light dusting. So for the sake of helping science in this battle I'll go ahead and order the scope. However I might just killed off the species that thrived in those conditions and I might just be left with something else now. Either way I'll get the scope and try to see what's left

Thanks! Plus, microscopic world of reef tanks is endlessly fascinating.

 

[bh750]

I would have loved to see scope pics of what actually was dominating in a tank with those conditions.
It would shock me if it was the same stuff that springs up in our ULN systems.


Stringy dinos like to grab onto rough surfaces in high flow, some people (me) have exported them that way with a filter floss hung like a flag waving in the flow in front of a powerhead.
Also most of our dinos are more than 20 microns across. Lots of paper towels have holes smaller than that and would catch the majority of them. So it's not a terrible idea, and would work in many cases.


I don't think the water changes are a definite YES or NO. In some cases, I'd recommend stopping them, in others I'd recommend doing them.
Here's how I think about it.
If you have green algae present and growing in the system and dinos present - then stopping water changes (while keeping P & N up) can cause a resource competition for minor elements that will disfavor the dinos.
If you have been doing no water changes and have no algae growth, slow or non-existent coral growth, and dinos present with everything static, then no water changes will just keep the system locked down in stasis and continue to enforce the stranglehold that dinos already have on the system. In this case water changes (plus other remediation) will be necessary to push the system forward and let things progress.

The Large Cell Amphidinium is the one strain that we know does not go into the water column - ever - and won'd be touched by UV/micron filter/whatever. At night it goes below the sand surface, so the sand is lighter in the morning just like with species that go into the water.

Ok thanks for the explanation on the WCs. Makes sense.

My heart sunk when I read these don't go into the water column and go below the sand. But maybe it's a blessing in disguise? Maybe this means these particular Dino's won't spread and dominate the rest of my tank? If so then simply stirring the sand every few days will at least make it look clean.

So is there small and large cell Amphidinium then? I took some fresh samples and put them under the scope last night. Have some pics to share. In one of sample I took from sand that looked clean with no dinos. I was surprised to find what looked like a ton of tiny Dino's flying around. Since these are single-called I guess they're not juveniles . Could they be small- or regular-celled Dino's?

I'll post a video later.

 

[reeferfoxx]

My heart sunk when I read these don't go into the water column and go below the sand. But maybe it's a blessing in disguise? Maybe this means these particular Dino's won't spread and dominate the rest of my tank? If so then simply stirring the sand every few days will at least make it look clean.

Think about this.

And some people want to keep their sand beds - like me. This method tries to protect some sandbed diversity.

^^^

Sandbed diversity. This is something i've been 'experimenting' with. Constant sandbed disruption in accordance with diversity disruption(amongst other things in my situation) I believe attributed to slow progression in dino and/or cyano eradication/progression. I think sandbeds not only have a job but also provide breeding grounds for diversity. I sort of base this judgement off spaghetti worm population. I see a reduction in worms when I disrupt the sandbed and a reduction in nitrogen gas. The less I mess with my sandbed, the more progress is witnessed.

I think the best course of action is to stir the top layer of sand and allow powerheads or wave pumps to do the rest. I also think the best time to stir the top layer is peak daytime or 2 hours before evening blues.

 

[Paullawr]

I would have loved to see scope pics of what actually was dominating in a tank with those conditions.
It would shock me if it was the same stuff that springs up in our ULN systems.


Stringy dinos like to grab onto rough surfaces in high flow, some people (me) have exported them that way with a filter floss hung like a flag waving in the flow in front of a powerhead.
Also most of our dinos are more than 20 microns across. Lots of paper towels have holes smaller than that and would catch the majority of them. So it's not a terrible idea, and would work in many cases.


I don't think the water changes are a definite YES or NO. In some cases, I'd recommend stopping them, in others I'd recommend doing them.
Here's how I think about it.
If you have green algae present and growing in the system and dinos present - then stopping water changes (while keeping P & N up) can cause a resource competition for minor elements that will disfavor the dinos.
If you have been doing no water changes and have no algae growth, slow or non-existent coral growth, and dinos present with everything static, then no water changes will just keep the system locked down in stasis and continue to enforce the stranglehold that dinos already have on the system. In this case water changes (plus other remediation) will be necessary to push the system forward and let things progress.

The Large Cell Amphidinium is the one strain that we know does not go into the water column - ever - and won'd be touched by UV/micron filter/whatever. At night it goes below the sand surface, so the sand is lighter in the morning just like with species that go into the water.

I wonder if they may go below the sand surface to avoid predation?

 

[taricha]

So is there small and large cell Amphidinium then? I took some fresh samples and put them under the scope last night. Have some pics to share.

Yes. That's what I was referring to here.

There's another strain of amphidinium that shows up in people's tanks and is like 1/5th the diameter of these, and it swims more actively, going into the water. People have reduced it with uv.

The Small-Cell Amphidinium(10-20 microns) are referenced a bunch in the literature. I have yet to find anything informative published that is definitively about the Large-Cell Amphidinium (50-60 microns - same size as Ostis, Proros, Coolia) that shows up in our tanks so often.

My pics of a mixed outbreak in a nano tank. Totally distinct populations side-by side. Not babies and adults.

 

[taricha]

TLDR version of this post: If you have Large-Cell Amphidinium, strongly consider dosing Si to outcompete with diatoms.

Back-figure your N from your NO3 test (still only a rough number...should be conservative) and your Si ratio from your chosen source of silicate, then you should be able to compute your dose. (Right?)

(Worth noting that's only a sample quote from the abstract.....there are other large concerns addressed too.)

I'll have to go back and see why it didn't stick.
Maybe wasn't giving results, maybe only dabbled in and not tested thoroughly, or maybe like in my case it was on the list to try, after a bunch of other stuff.

Ok, after running it down a bit, this was discussed but never thoroughly tested. Those looking had lots of other leads to chase down, and one guy posted:

Fighting dinos atm with growing frustration every day.
Started with me noticing some brown stuff on the sandbed when i changed water, went away in a few days, but took longer and longer to dissapear every weekly waterchange...
With the brown stuff covering the sand and corals starting to look worse and worse i started to do a 20% 20% 20% waterchange over the weekend and vaccumed the shallow sandbed. Things looked nice for about an hour...
Did some research and found out i had a case of the dinos, tank looks nice in the morning, and by the time the lights go out sandbed is a brown slush.
Sent in a watersample to triton and it came back with this.
....
Si waaaaaay high [it showed 1561 micrograms/L = 1.56 ppm], ordered new DI resisns for rodi, some Si filtermedia, Salifert Si test.
Salifert Si i get a reading of 0...
Dont know if theres any errors in the ICP-OES for Si...

So lots of other things to test, and one account of a guy who says he had dinos (no picture evidence posted) and got back a reading from Triton of "Way high" Silicates (note - 1.5 ppm still not likely Si:N ratio of 1 as recommended by paper). This is why people didn't pursue this test this the first go round.

The full paper itself is Really Good. This Si for sand bed amphidinium deserves a thorough test, especially since the sand is also prime diatom real estate.
Highlights from paper:
This is Small-Cell Amphidinium See my last post #2494

They literally don't care if you try to deprive them of N, (or P or B12 etc). They store it up and then split it up to offspring for several generations. Oh, and another reference to dinos liking ammonia better than nitrate.

continued....

Amphidinium are "psammophilic" = "they like sand" lol. Flat to navigate between sand grains. These kind show up in water only when kicked up by storm turbulence.

The end result of the Si testing was, without Si, the Amphidinium dominated. With Si:N 1/2, Amphidinium dominated 1 of 10 trials, but in others was barely detected. With Si:N of 1:1, diatoms grew well, and dino barely detectable.
The details on the levels tested were NH4 was added as 30 micromolar = .54ppm ammonia = .42ppm N = 1.86 ppm NO3 equivalent.
So Si was either none, 0.21ppm in the 1/2 strength trial, or 0.42ppm in full strength. And they ran most tests for 10 days.

If you had like 10 ppm Nitrate, = 2.25ppm N, I don't think I'd necessarily aim for 1:1 Si:N right off the bat, I might start at their numbers ~0.42ppm Si and after a week or so, possibly scale up towards closer to a 1:1 ratio if results aren't coming.
But I hope you have something that eats diatoms, because you might get a lot of them

 

[reeferfoxx]

I wonder if they may go below the sand surface to avoid predation?

I don't know.

 

[tonymacc]

I didnt know tropic marine produced such a thing. Sounds very good. I will get some myself as saves a bit of the guess work. Good find Tony.

I have a bottle here, been using for last few days, what I have found in this short space of time is that it raises my no3 but not really the po4, My no3 hasn't been dosed for over a week and has stayed around 12-16ppm mark (redsea) but has risen to 20 since using the Plus np, I have been dosing the Seachem Phosphorous 2 x 3ml per day and been holding po4 at 0.08 but since using the Plus np it has been dropping to 0.04 and needed to dose some seachem to bring it up so I'm having to dose 2 things, not ideal so am going to revert back to the Seachem Phosphorous only for now and should my no3 start to drop maybe that's the time to use the Plus np.

 

[Javamahn]

DinoX is back ordered everywhere. Lots of folks looking for answers

 

[reeferfoxx]

DinoX is back ordered everywhere. Lots of folks looking for answers

Bottles of magical fixes. This will be good to hear all the positive and negative reviews

 

[xabo]

My bottle will be here on Monday.