Dinoflagellates – Are You Tired Of Battling Altogether?

[reeferfoxx]

I'm pretty much with Taricha on this....once you have multiple signs that toxins are gone and "plankton/coral friendly" things are looking happy again, it should be safe to start adding more diversity. Adding coral is a great way to do it BTW. As with all things reefy, go slow at first "just in case".

I'm adding coral. Coral are doing great. Adding some bristle worms and brittlestars this friday. Looks like algae barn is running low on inventory. Therefore pods won't be in till next week. I threw away my jebao dp-4 doser and have the new GHL dosing 2 part helping keep everything stable. I also removed the skimmer because nutrients were a little lower than I like. Keeping water changes at a 2 to 3 week interval. Things are looking good.

 

[subareef]

It won't take much. You don't have to raise them to the point your growing GHA everywhere. 5 ppm of Nitrate and .05 ppm of phosphate. The important part is really the ratio be 16:1 or higher N. If you had a chance outbreak you should probably increase flow. Also, using products like Fiji Mud can significantly increase biodiversity of your microfauna and keep the dinos from coming back so easy the next time.

I’ve always had the idea pushed into my head from reading and reading that you want those levels to be 0 in a nice tank and how they drive algae growth and such. Obviously I went overboard with the wanting a clean pristine tank so soon or even in general. So my question is when I get things back in check and get these diatoms taken care of, what levels should I be striving to keep and have the tank still be safe for my inhabitants? I know too high of levels are not the best for fish and coral and clean up crew etc.

I have been looking into adding Fiji mud to the refugium and getting that running and every with chaeto but I will most likely wait on that until I get the dinos under control.

As for flow in the tank, I have two koralia 1500 power heads on the sides of the tank and pointed one towards the front glass and one towards the back. And I’m the middle of the back wall I have a jebao wavemaker pushimg towards the front kind of to the left. I had it like that to try to keep the substrate clean and it does a good job at that but it doesn’t seem like it’s hitting the rocks all that much in the middle. I’ve tried lots of positioning for the powerheads and I’m still experimenting. Should I point them into each other? Point them into the rocks? Towards the surface? I’ve tried a lot and this seems to keep the sand the cleanest so far but the rocks not so much.

 

[Jeremy Gibbs]

I’ve always had the idea pushed into my head from reading and reading that you want those levels to be 0 in a nice tank and how they drive algae growth and such. Obviously I went overboard with the wanting a clean pristine tank so soon or even in general. So my question is when I get things back in check and get these diatoms taken care of, what levels should I be striving to keep and have the tank still be safe for my inhabitants? I know too high of levels are not the best for fish and coral and clean up crew etc.

I have been looking into adding Fiji mud to the refugium and getting that running and every with chaeto but I will most likely wait on that until I get the dinos under control.

As for flow in the tank, I have two koralia 1500 power heads on the sides of the tank and pointed one towards the front glass and one towards the back. And I’m the middle of the back wall I have a jebao wavemaker pushimg towards the front kind of to the left. I had it like that to try to keep the substrate clean and it does a good job at that but it doesn’t seem like it’s hitting the rocks all that much in the middle. I’ve tried lots of positioning for the powerheads and I’m still experimenting. Should I point them into each other? Point them into the rocks? Towards the surface? I’ve tried a lot and this seems to keep the sand the cleanest so far but the rocks not so much.

I shoot for 2-5 ppm of nitrate and detectable but less than .1 ppm phosphate. As far as the mud, I would go ahead. It will help and there isn't a real reason to hold off. With regard to your power-heads I would point them at each other and use wave settings. The general wisdom is random and/or alternating flow.

 

[JAMSOURY]

Looks like the Dino’s is almost gone. Do I have to worry about Dino’s possibly blooming in the sump tank?

 

[Jeremy Gibbs]

Looks like the Dino’s is almost gone. Do I have to worry about Dino’s possibly blooming in the sump tank?

Dinoflagellates are so named because they possess flagella as a means of motility. Many move into the water column at night. As such, if you have them in your system they are usually present throughout the system. For this reason it's best to treat them by making the entire environment inhospitable to them both in the display and any support tanks connected to the display. However, if you are seeing them disappear in the display it is unlikely they will bloom elsewhere. Cyanobacteria on the other hand may bloom in spots where flow is reduced and can be very localized.

 

[mcarroll]

More than likely they are everywhere, just in low numbers. You generally only notice them in the display blooming because of the bright light and strong flow....that induces the matting/snotty mass behavior. Otherwise they are microscopic individuals.

Long way of saying, no I wouldn't worry about that outside of normal concerns. (e.g. If there's a lot of detritus down there, then now would be a good time for a cleaning. Nothing particular about dino's there. )

 

[kinetic]

I'm on day 19. After about two weeks of dinos getting worse, I decided to change up my approach.

Instead of dosing NO3/PO4, which seemed to only make dinos aggressively worse (killing all my corals), I decided to try to absolutely starve them out.

I started dosing NoPoX, did my usual 20% water changes every 2 days, reduced feeding, turned off my U.V., and stopped dosing NO3/PO4.

My NO3/PO4 levels are back down to undetectable, and the Dinos have been growing back way less than before. DinoX finally seems to be working (I slightly increased the dosage from recommended, and that has been working well. I went from 8ml to 10ml for my ~42g system).

For the long term, I'm thinking of just running ULNS to starve out the Dinos constantly since the opposite doesn't seem to be working. I'll constantly dose NoPoX and Amino Acids (to feed the corals) to a point where there should be zero NO3/PO4 for the Dinos (hopefully the bacteria built up from NoPox will consume faster).

Any thoughts?

 

[reeferfoxx]

I'm on day 19. After about two weeks of dinos getting worse, I decided to change up my approach.

Instead of dosing NO3/PO4, which seemed to only make dinos aggressively worse (killing all my corals), I decided to try to absolutely starve them out.

I started dosing NoPoX, did my usual 20% water changes every 2 days, reduced feeding, turned off my U.V., and stopped dosing NO3/PO4.

My NO3/PO4 levels are back down to undetectable, and the Dinos have been growing back way less than before. DinoX finally seems to be working (I slightly increased the dosage from recommended, and that has been working well. I went from 8ml to 10ml for my ~42g system).

For the long term, I'm thinking of just running ULNS to starve out the Dinos constantly since the opposite doesn't seem to be working. I'll constantly dose NoPoX and Amino Acids (to feed the corals) to a point where there should be zero NO3/PO4 for the Dinos (hopefully the bacteria built up from NoPox will consume faster).

Any thoughts?

Sometimes different strains of dino react differently to set treatments. I think reducing nutrients, reducing bacteria, reducing microbial communities that rely on nutrients, isn't the right way. Have you ID'd your strain? Did you incorporate a UV sterilizer?

 

[kecked]

Hey since the Dino’s leave every night does that mean a uv sterilizer would kill them? Where do the go? It’s only a few hours of dark that is required to see them go.

Staving the tank got me here. Don’t do it.

 

[mdd1986]

Anyone have any advice on getting what I have in my tank IDed? I can't seem to figure it out with my toy scope. I'm willing to pay someone for the help.

 

[kinetic]

Sometimes different strains of dino react differently to set treatments. I think reducing nutrients, reducing bacteria, reducing microbial communities that rely on nutrients, isn't the right way. Have you ID'd your strain? Did you incorporate a UV sterilizer?

I can't figure out what kind of dinos I have. I don't have a microscope, and it has seemed a bit silly to get one just for this one time (they're pricey, at like $200 and you still have to get all the things like plates and all that), though I guess at this point it would be worth it. I think it would've been better to just treat for all the different kinds.

I have always run U.V., so it isn't that. The dinos don't go away at night.

I tried going with NO3/PO4 levels higher, but that made it WAY worse (1/2" mat within 24 hours over everything). The only thing that has helped is dosing NoPox with DinoX and manual removal every 2 days. It's been about a month of battling it, and finally within just a handful of days doing the starving it out method, it's actually improved.

 

[mcarroll]

I can't figure out what kind of dinos I have. I don't have a microscope, and it has seemed a bit silly to get one just for this one time (they're pricey, at like $200 and you still have to get all the things like plates and all that), though I guess at this point it would be worth it. I think it would've been better to just treat for all the different kinds.

I have always run U.V., so it isn't that. The dinos don't go away at night.

I tried going with NO3/PO4 levels higher, but that made it WAY worse (1/2" mat within 24 hours over everything). The only thing that has helped is dosing NoPox with DinoX and manual removal every 2 days. It's been about a month of battling it, and finally within just a handful of days doing the starving it out method, it's actually improved.

It sounds like we should start over at the ID phase. I dunno if this search will work to help, but I couldn't find any pictures of the tank or results from the non-microscope tests linked in the first post.

It sounds like you had green algae growth along with your brown algae/preumably dinos....but incidentally you took until 2/6 to get your nutrients adjusted and overfed and carbon dosed (amino's) during some of the in between time.

Most dino's will disperse once the lights go out...whether they go up or down is the part that's dependent on type of dino.

You also missed the part in the first post about microscopes (maybe added after you looked, I can't be sure) but there's a $10-$15 toy microscope that lots of people have used for their first ID. I'm using it just to get some experience while I decide what scope I really want.

Worth it though!!

 

[RedneckReefer68]

Well after adding the UV yesterday and pushing brown stands of dinos through it with all flow of in tank for a while, I come home today and not a single strand with a bubble attached anywhere in the tank including the sand bed. I'm not saying they are gone, I'm just surprised and amazed I couldn't find any after 15 minutes of checking my tank out.

 

[kinetic]

It sounds like we should start over at the ID phase. I dunno if this search will work to help, but I couldn't find any pictures of the tank or results from the non-microscope tests linked in the first post.

It sounds like you had green algae growth along with your brown algae/preumably dinos....but incidentally you took until 2/6 to get your nutrients adjusted and overfed and carbon dosed (amino's) during some of the in between time.

Most dino's will disperse once the lights go out...whether they go up or down is the part that's dependent on type of dino.

You also missed the part in the first post about microscopes (maybe added after you looked, I can't be sure) but there's a $10-$15 toy microscope that lots of people have used for their first ID. I'm using it just to get some experience while I decide what scope I really want.

Worth it though!!

I saw some threads, including the one you started about microscopes. It didn't seem like the toy microscopes worked? Or did it and I was mistaken? The thread quickly moved away from the toys and talked about the $150+ microscopes.

I think you might be right in starting over with a clearer ID. The search link didn't work unfortunately. Are you referring to this one?
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/d...ttling-altogether.293318/page-50#post-4043274

I used that before, and though I didn't have hydrogen peroxide on hand, i should probably go get some to try it out.

There are lots of bubbles that develop, and sometimes it makes it float up. I've had cyano in other systems before, and I don't think this is the same thing (though there could have been different types of cyano). I also tried to treat with chemiclean but that did nothing so I ruled out cyano at the time, but it might not be conclusive enough.

When I manually siphon out all the "dinos," the dinos eventually lose their bubbles and fall to the bottom of the bucket and look like debris (like the photos) rather than slimy red clumps.

At night, the dinos do not go away. Dead in the night, hours after lights out, the dinos are alive and well. I was running an 8 watt u.v. all the time until I just started dosing NoPox.

I'll run out and get the hydrogen peroxide now and see what I get.

Thank you!

 

[taricha]

For the long term, I'm thinking of just running ULNS to starve out the Dinos constantly since the opposite doesn't seem to be working. I'll constantly dose NoPoX and Amino Acids (to feed the corals) to a point where there should be zero NO3/PO4 for the Dinos (hopefully the bacteria built up from NoPox will consume faster).
Any thoughts?

Let me say it this way: If dinos were starved out by low nutrients and carbon dosing, then we'd never know anything about "Dinoflagellates" because we wouldn't care! They would be just a weird kind of brown algae that we treat like all the other algae. Clean Water, Starve Out, Black Out, Oxidize, Algaecide etc.
The reason we know about dinos is because they present like an algae, but are not controlled by typical algae control methods. Hence this thread.
It's good to circle back on the ID point - like you are doing - and see what it is we are actually dealing with.

 

[subareef]

I shoot for 2-5 ppm of nitrate and detectable but less than .1 ppm phosphate. As far as the mud, I would go ahead. It will help and there isn't a real reason to hold off. With regard to your power-heads I would point them at each other and use wave settings. The general wisdom is random and/or alternating flow.

As suggested I’m gonna work on raising my phosphates to around .5 or so since I’m showing no readings and then I will take steps to raise my nitrates up to around 5ppm and see how the Dino’s react at that point. To raise the phosphates I’m thinking of maybe doing a little over feeding and maybe shutting my skimmer down or tuning it way down so I’m getting the oxygenation from it for the water but nothing actually being skimmed out. I’ll leave my filter socks in longer than I usually do as well and see how that works. If not I’ll does potassium phosphate for planted tanks or whatever and see what happens. I’ve seen some instances of people using that and having good results.

I’ve seen people say add more fish to produce more waste and it will raise up the numbers but I think I’m better off saving the money on fish and getting the tank parameters under co tell before doing that, rather than just dumping in fish. I’m picky on what I want in the tank anyways lol.

For nitrates I was thinking of either dosing with stump remover like I’ve seen a lot or flourish nitrogen. Also was considering adding like sodium nitrate or KNO3 planted tank fertilizer. I’ve seen some people warn against overdosing potassium but I don’t anticipate on that being a problem, I’m not gonna be raising it to some crazy level. I guess it all depends how much I need to add to reach a point where the nitrate isn’t just eaten up by the tank and starts rising.

I’ll keep everyone posted on my results. Open to suggestions as well on the phosphate and nitrate dosing

 

[zachxlutz]

I’ve seen some people warn against overdosing potassium but I don’t anticipate on that being a problem, I’m not gonna be raising it to some crazy level. I guess it all depends how much I need to add to reach a point where the nitrate isn’t just eaten up by the tank and starts rising.

Check out James' Calculator... click the dropdown and you can select potassium from potassium nitrate and it will cue you in to how much K you're actually adding to your system, if you're concerned.

 

[subareef]

Check out James' Calculator... click the dropdown and you can select potassium from potassium nitrate and it will cue you in to how much K you're actually adding to your system, if you're concerned.

I’ll have to check that out. Ive seen the dosage calculator for the potassium nitrate and stuff and plan on using that a lot during this whole process too

 

[kecked]

Ok the Dino’s don’t go away but why are they invisible each morning. It looks like they hide. When they get light they show again. Gett8ng better every day since I added the dry rock for the phosphates. Holding a nice 0.1ppm with 5ppm nitrate now. Got alk under control 8-9 steady. Got auto topoff and doser going.

Coral looks much happier. Even my star polyps are coming back out. I found a crab I thought long dead that is a monster now.

 

[taricha]

@dwest Ok. This is tricky. I can't make out any actual cell details on the pics or vid, but let me go out on a limb anyway.

The diatoms in that video/pics are a kind that are pretty common (cylindrotheca probably) and their pigmented parts are in the 20-30 micron range. Which puts your dinos as a good bit smaller than that: under 10 microns.

This excludes the common varieties: Ostreopsis, Prorocentrum, Large Cell Amphidinium - as they are like 40-60+ microns typically.
I'd guess here that we're dealing with small-cell amphidinium. The motion is kinda similar, and my small-cell amphidinium looked not too different from yours on the rocks. (texture-wise: your color is all blue, so can't say)

Although it could be one of a couple of weird kinds of small guys that only @Beardo has had.

Some people have had modest success with UV vs Small-cell amphidinium, though it sounds like you haven't yet. Try blasting rocks at night and leaving lights off for a few extra hours and see if that shifts things with the UV.