Dinoflagellates – Are You Tired Of Battling Altogether?

[mstockmaster]

That is frustrating. I wonder if it was too soon to perform any nutrient reductions. Maybe too much of a shift? I think UV is the new insurance policy for reefs unfortunately.

Well I dumped some more phosphate back in the system. Brought it up to .1 po4 25 nh3 because why not. Nothing is really growing anyways. Let's party.

 

[taricha]

So what's my play? I had eliminated these last fall with elevated nutrients. But they came back and my nutrients aren't bottomed out ( 20 nitrates .03 phosphate).

I test every 3-4 days. Salifert nitrate, Hanna ulr phosphorus. I'll test again tonight with Hanna and salifert phosphorus. Maybe I'll just dump some phosphate in for good measure. I think I had it up to .15 or so when I last got rid of this crap. A local guy is giving me a 36 watt coralife uv that needs a bulb. If I can't reduce this outbreak in a week I'll throw it on and see what happens.

Added new skimmer. Added a small diy ATS. Wanted to lower the amount of nitrates in the tank. I have not added any chemicals or other snake oil products.

Thanks for the report. It's helpful info. It seems like you have a good handle on what direction to go next, Dose and UV.
In addition to the Qs you did answer, could you answer a few more to help us out?
1. Can we get a FTS?
2. when did the original outbreak end, when did the new one begin?
3. Compare the severity now with the original outbreak?
Comments: hard to pinpoint a specific nutrient target number - some things that people post in here as "elevated P" that helped them shed dinos are lower than any P Ive ever measured in my tank and lower than levels that allowed my outbreak. In my tank 0.05 PO4 would start to show P starvation - algae would retreat and the sandbed microfauna would slowly dwindle until there were few competitors, then if any dinos were present in the system, they would assert themselves. At some level you have to know your own system, because a 1 cube a day low export tank running 0.05 PO4 and a tank that gets 3 cubes a day and exports more and measures the same 0.05 PO4 are likely very different systems nutritionally. I ramble about this idea for a really long time in post #3384
It also stands to reason that pushing nutrients lower shortly after outbreak would be more problematic than doing so many months after (sounds like you had a big time gap between outbreaks). A complication to that is Ostreopsis are the best-documented cyst building dinos. Short term cysts that wait out temporary stress (hours to days), and long-term cysts meant to overwinter from late fall to early spring, so time may not actually be that big a factor.
Elevated temps and available P & N are associated with ostreopsis cyst emergence, so maybe some effort could be made to hatch the cysts and get it over with? I dunno. I do suspect that the fact that cysts are only formed by a small percent of the original bloom, means that recurring blooms on a smaller scale than the original can be expected and may not signal failure at all, just a slower than ideal process.
I don't remember seeing enough accounts of reblooms of ostis (presumably from cysts) to say if they were more likely with or without UV. But it may be that blooms ended with help of UV are less likely to form a cyst population. But maybe they do and re-hatches are immediately killed so we never see them? All open questions.

Mstockmaster

What you posted is what stands out to me in these threads and is the basis for my minor challenges to this system which leaves an invader in place as a core design. I'm not downing the thread, it's attaining some cures and making headway for large tankers who can't rip clean fully.

over time as these noncompliants post, I'll add this: any non compliant tank posting this kind of detail should have total dedicated unfettered +10 focus until resolved attention from the top three resolutioners in this thread


The finality in my opinion is no form of nutrient changes makes a Dino invasion... Cells=gone is the goal. **thousands of pico reefers and nano keepers never concern over N and P and are models for being invader free, the biased feel. We're mass excluders by and large and hope more larger tanks in early stage invasion will consider the option.

we have GFO users, phosphate stripper picos, who were never invaded as well... AndrewK has online a four year thread on a two gallon, gfo saved him water change work and never caused dinos to bloom because they weren't there.

if we ever had a chance to apply a force clean model to the tank for Mstock in our threads, afterwards we would order from Algen the latest living competing live pods + your microbe competitor bottled bac soln's which aren't harmful to use even if they aren't guaranteed to work. Use this competition approach the Dino thread has championed, but in the order of ops that applies it to the least invader mass possible.

You're quite right. And a little perspective, some of my earlier arguments against quarantine/dipping etc are like saying "you can still get sick even if you wash your hands or get the flu shot, so don't bother washing hands or getting the shot." Killing 90% or 98% or 99.5% of cells is totally worth doing, and one takeaway from your nano systems is that these methods are good enough in many cases to prevent an outbreak entirely.
We should probably have been doing the same in the large tank world.

 

[mstockmaster]

So, this outbreak hasn't been as severe as the previous one. The previous outbreak was largely eliminated by early December. None of my outbreaks have made it to the levels where the dinos are coating everything, making bubbles etc. It's more just a general film on the rocks and some stringy dinos attached to some corals, usually whichever ones they find weakest. I wish I had my logs from back in December, that would have shown the nutrient measurements when the dinos started receding. Unfortunately the app I was using seems to have shut down and I can't access any of the info.

Here's an fts from a week ago. Honestly you can't see anything in it but the dinos are there.

 

[brandon429]

Agreed cannot see them, they’re getting suppressed to the point of becoming unexpressed tank biota Like T mentioned earlier for sure.


It’s borderline unfair how small tanks have accessibility in their favor...I think large tankers even with bare bottom systems need the tenets of this thread in place to hedge their best safety bets. This challenge tank we are referencing isn’t in full blown invasion -due- to the collected works here, it’s on that final leg of the race and it seemed some good focus would get it thru that last uprising

Given anyone’s best QT protocol we know things will get through and when the lottery sends a little flagellate through, 0% of larger tankers want to scrub and access the tank deeply and 100% of them want a chemistry tuning approach, you and the team are working on a path of massive demand and Mcarroll/Taricha due to your upcoming 300 pages in one thread this will be the top large tank reference for dinos on the entire web.

One day in the vast future when I get a huge unscrubbable large tank, I’ll be rereading all these posts to hedge myself the best bet during setup and scaping and stocking. I know we won’t have the takedown cheat that always lets nano keepers reset themselves clean, first go planning will rule on that day.


One takeaway I’m getting from these pages is that when a large tank is initially setup and not invaded, setting up and increasing microbial competition, spending good money at Algen for a heterogenous mixture of hungry pods might be the most important things to farm long before coral additions, and QT begin. I have never approached reefing like that, in fact we don’t care much about that diversity at all in nano reefing (Blinded by cheating) but this thread shows that to be an overlooked massive benefit which Mother Nature uses to great effect.

Am willing to bet a majority of challenges in nanos are caused and can be prevented by the same token. all garnered from this thread. I’ll be linking back here for examples as time goes by and natural competitions become the highlight of the new ways of controlling tank life cycles.

 

[mstockmaster]

You can see them better in these pictures. These were both taken last week. The outbreak did get a bit worse over the weekend than what is shown here.

 

[taricha]

One question guys, in my big tank I dont have dino problems but its very phosphate limited, my nitrates rise with food but my phosphates dont, thay read 0 or 1 on my hanna ulr phosphorus, my sps corals look pale and some will str, to help them I try to dose seachem phosphorus but everytime I dose I see negative response from my corals, they close with only 0.01 rise, is there any way I have enough phosphate but my test dont show it? When I had chaeto in sump it grows really quick, I took it out to rise my phosphate now.

If you aren't fighting dinos at the moment, and just looking to tweak nutrients a bit, then check out what I said buried in this really long post #3384.
I talk about an article by Randy that discusses the levels of P in different fish foods, and they have very very wide range of ratios. So if you want to gently up P without changing the amount of food, you can choose from some of the higher P foods and it may give you what you want.

 

[Jolanta]

If you aren't fighting dinos at the moment, and just looking to tweak nutrients a bit, then check out what I said buried in this really long post #3384.
I talk about an article by Randy that discusses the levels of P in different fish foods, and they have very very wide range of ratios. So if you want to gently up P without changing the amount of food, you can choose from some of the higher P foods and it may give you what you want.

Thank you very much Taricha! The strangr thing is I get a very good growth from chaeto and I think if my tank would be phoshate limited it wouldnt grow, or am I wrong? When you dose phoshate you also notice your corals to close?

 

[taricha]

Thank you very much Taricha! The strangr thing is I get a very good growth from chaeto and I think if my tank would be phoshate limited it wouldnt grow, or am I wrong? When you dose phoshate you also notice your corals to close?

That's the other big part of the long nutrient post I made. Lots of nutrients in a system, but only a slice of it is measurable. Chaeto growth is hinting at that. Also, nutrients in sump, in the sand, and in the water column can all be very different. (I think I've seen published measures of N in the sand ~10x higher than water above it)
The corals closing is the part that seems weird. What are you dosing as your P source?

 

[Jolanta]

I dose seachem phosphorus.

 

[mstockmaster]

You can see them better in these pictures. These were both taken last week. The outbreak did get a bit worse over the weekend than what is shown here.

Got some pictures today. No real progress either way. Coral in second picture is a goner. The rest seem healthy enough that they're fighting it off. Good thing is that so far it appears that they aren't toxic. No snails have died, Blenny seems normal, etc.

 

[reeferfoxx]

That's the other big part of the long nutrient post I made. Lots of nutrients in a system, but only a slice of it is measurable. Chaeto growth is hinting at that. Also, nutrients in sump, in the sand, and in the water column can all be very different. (I think I've seen published measures of N in the sand ~10x higher than water above it)
The corals closing is the part that seems weird. What are you dosing as your P source?

I dose seachem phosphorus.

I think its dependent on the amount that is dose when comparing coral response. Seachems bottle states a half cap for 25g will increase P by 0.05. To me thats a fast influx and might create a O2 or pH shift. I could be wrong as well. I know a fast decrease in nutrients like say GFO influence can reduce alk. Either way it might be too much of a shift in the tank equilibrium. If I dose P its going only increase by 0.015 - 0.020. And with that I dont see any negative response.

 

[NikoO]

I belive I have ostreopsis olva, does anyone know a cure?

 

[Jolanta]

I think its dependent on the amount that is dose when comparing coral response. Seachems bottle states a half cap for 25g will increase P by 0.05. To me thats a fast influx and might create a O2 or pH shift. I could be wrong as well. I know a fast decrease in nutrients like say GFO influence can reduce alk. Either way it might be too much of a shift in the tank equilibrium. If I dose P its going only increase by 0.015 - 0.020. And with that I dont see any negative response.

I dosed a cup for my 150 gallon and it increased my phosphate at 0.01, I think its not that bad shift, now what I will do I will dose a cup to my ato reseivour and see how its going.

 

[reeferfoxx]

I dosed a cup for my 150 gallon and it increased my phosphate at 0.01, I think its not that bad shift, now what I will do I will dose a cup to my ato reseivour and see how its going.

Oh wow. Might be too much potassium then.

 

[kecked]

I’m using tsp. From hardware store. I add 4ml of 1g/10ml solution daily. Can’t keep it up beyond 0.1ppm. My total volume is around 65 gallons. My nitrates dropped too low so I am now dosing calcium nitrate. Not sure everyone can get that but it works well. Figured might as well use all the ions. It is a touch acid so it eat a little alk. No big deal.

I have to say the no nutrients is crap. Everything looks better even if I have dinos for now. I’ll not go back to ultra low. Things that were dying are now thriving.

 

[promptcritical]

I have a question on "nutrient balance." I get that too low is bad. How high is too high (bad)? I've been trying to fight the dinos in my tank (I'm pretty sure I know they're dinos, but not what kind) for a few months now. My NO3 is at something like 25ppm (maybe a little lower on a Nyos kit) and have been there for months. Po4 around .16-.2 on Hanna ULR. I have not done a significant water change in a couple months and those values seem to hold in that area. In the last month or month and a half I've had a pretty good growth of coraline finally still with donor kicking butt. A little cyano at the glass and sand interface. Dinos still there and seem pretty consistent. I have only one flower pot coral having on for dear life for like 6 months now and a fuzzy mushroom rock with lots of mushroom heads on it that seems to thrive in my filthy water. My derasa calm is growing like a weed in there too. Fish of course are fine. The few snails seem to be okay (astraea).

I'm skimming fairly wet and change my filter socks at least every 2 days at the longest. So, I've heard "get clean water, don't change water, clean the sand, don't clean the sand, get nitrates 2-5ppm, PO4 .03-.05" and more. I'm not having a lot of luck here. Ca, Alk, Mg all steady at 430-450, 8.0-8.5ish, 1300. Ph runs from 7.8 at night to 8.0 in the day time. I tried some cheato in my fuge, but it just wasted away....seemed weird when I got it and never really took off. Good lighting and flow in the fuge. When I was lighting the fuge with the cheato I was getting some green algae there (good thing?) but stopped because the chaeto just disintegrated. I added a bag of pods from Algae Barn (that's where my doomed chaeto came from too). I've been adding about 15ml of photo from Algae Barn 3 times a week. So, some big, or lots of small, water changes to lower my N & P to something better? Vacuum the sand? I was blowing the rocks off with a power head and catching the large amount of crap that got stirred up in the socks. I heard that was a bad idea and good idea (both). I think the long time posters in this thread know more than anybody when it comes to dealing with dinos. Any ideas how to proceed? Thanks.

Oh...duh. Red Sea Reefer 525XL so probably about 80-90 gallons total taking out rock and sand. Been running for a year and a half.

 

[reeferfoxx]

I dosed a cup for my 150 gallon and it increased my phosphate at 0.01, I think its not that bad shift, now what I will do I will dose a cup to my ato reseivour and see how its going.

Ok. So when you said a cup of Seachem Phosphorus I couldn't help but have a headjerk reaction. So after thinking about it, what exactly are you testing po4 with? I'm looking at the bottle of Seachem Phosphorus and i was incorrect saying Half a cap per 25 gallons equals 0.05 po4. That is actually phosphorus and 0.15 phosphate.

You are saying you are dosing 236 mL of seachem phosphorus. Your test result is 0.01ppm? That cannot be correct.

The equation is : 0.8vp=m

v= volumn
p= desired phosphate
m= dosing amount

If desired po4 is 0.05mL you should be dosing 6mL.
0.8*150*0.05=6mL

 

[reeferfoxx]

I have a question on "nutrient balance." I get that too low is bad. How high is too high (bad)? I've been trying to fight the dinos in my tank (I'm pretty sure I know they're dinos, but not what kind) for a few months now. My NO3 is at something like 25ppm (maybe a little lower on a Nyos kit) and have been there for months. Po4 around .16-.2 on Hanna ULR. I have not done a significant water change in a couple months and those values seem to hold in that area. In the last month or month and a half I've had a pretty good growth of coraline finally still with donor kicking butt. A little cyano at the glass and sand interface. Dinos still there and seem pretty consistent. I have only one flower pot coral having on for dear life for like 6 months now and a fuzzy mushroom rock with lots of mushroom heads on it that seems to thrive in my filthy water. My derasa calm is growing like a weed in there too. Fish of course are fine. The few snails seem to be okay (astraea).

I'm skimming fairly wet and change my filter socks at least every 2 days at the longest. So, I've heard "get clean water, don't change water, clean the sand, don't clean the sand, get nitrates 2-5ppm, PO4 .03-.05" and more. I'm not having a lot of luck here. Ca, Alk, Mg all steady at 430-450, 8.0-8.5ish, 1300. Ph runs from 7.8 at night to 8.0 in the day time. I tried some cheato in my fuge, but it just wasted away....seemed weird when I got it and never really took off. Good lighting and flow in the fuge. When I was lighting the fuge with the cheato I was getting some green algae there (good thing?) but stopped because the chaeto just disintegrated. I added a bag of pods from Algae Barn (that's where my doomed chaeto came from too). I've been adding about 15ml of photo from Algae Barn 3 times a week. So, some big, or lots of small, water changes to lower my N & P to something better? Vacuum the sand? I was blowing the rocks off with a power head and catching the large amount of crap that got stirred up in the socks. I heard that was a bad idea and good idea (both). I think the long time posters in this thread know more than anybody when it comes to dealing with dinos. Any ideas how to proceed? Thanks.

Oh...duh. Red Sea Reefer 525XL so probably about 80-90 gallons total taking out rock and sand. Been running for a year and a half.

$12 microscope off amazon will ID it. Can you get a front tank shot of the tank and the problem areas with the dinos?

I would order a second nitrate test kit to verify your nitrates are that high.
How much light are you putting on your chaeto and for how long?
I think at this point it would be wise to do a water change as long as your source water is good.

 

[Jolanta]

Ok. So when you said a cup of Seachem Phosphorus I couldn't help but have a headjerk reaction. So after thinking about it, what exactly are you testing po4 with? I'm looking at the bottle of Seachem Phosphorus and i was incorrect saying Half a cap per 25 gallons equals 0.05 po4. That is actually phosphorus and 0.15 phosphate.

You are saying you are dosing 236 mL of seachem phosphorus. Your test result is 0.01ppm? That cannot be correct.

The equation is : 0.8vp=m

v= volumn
p= desired phosphate
m= dosing amount

If desired po4 is 0.05mL you should be dosing 6mL.
0.8*150*0.05=6mL

Im sorry for my english for cup I ment this

 

[promptcritical]

$12 microscope off amazon will ID it. Can you get a front tank shot of the tank and the problem areas with the dinos?

I would order a second nitrate test kit to verify your nitrates are that high.
How much light are you putting on your chaeto and for how long?
I think at this point it would be wise to do a water change as long as your source water is good.

Thanks for replying.

I suppose I should get a cheap scope and figure out how to use it and get a picture.

I have another test kit...Red Sea Pro. I'll check it. Last time I used it I got close numbers and they were around 16 if I remember right. I'll check it again.

I have a Kessil H380 about 12 inches above the water level in my fuge. I was running it about 6 hours a night to start. I sure grew some green algae in the glass that wasn't shielded from the light.

My source water is good as far as I know (RO/DI). I've tested if for PO4 and nitrate and get nothing (sometimes like 1 or 2 ppb with the Hanna ULR but I think that's zero or close....noise in the analysis I believe). So big water change like 30-40%? My usual water change schedule was 15 gallons every 2 weeks but I've done them at like 30 gallons at a time before. Not sure which is best.