Dinoflagellates – Are You Tired Of Battling Altogether?

reeferfoxx

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Im sorry for my english :) for cup I ment this
a45857601be1fe5ea574381b6447f5c5.jpg
Ok good! haha! ;Happy

Ok that 'cap' is 5mL not 6mL.

You also said you had chaeto growing? Sounds like it is consuming available phosphate. Like taricha said, organic phosphate(fish/coral food) cannot be tested. Only after so long it converts to inorganic phosphate(can be tested with hanna checker. Seachem Phosphorus is inorganic phosphate). It might be too soon to have chaeto growing if phosphate is limiting factor. Also, to reduce coral reaction from seach phosphorus, dose at night when lights are off and in morning before lights on. Seachem phosphorus does not contain any food so it won't make a feeding response. The importance of phosphate for stony coral is the corals ability to use phosphate in its stony skeleton as well as nitrate in the form of calcium phosphate/nitrate precipitation. Too much nutrient restricts growth. Too little restricts growth. Healthy po4 levels are 0.02 - 0.08ppm. No3 is 1-10ppm. No3 can be higher but will cause coral to brown out. Coral colors aren't important with battling dinos.

Thanks for replying.

I suppose I should get a cheap scope and figure out how to use it and get a picture.

I have another test kit...Red Sea Pro. I'll check it. Last time I used it I got close numbers and they were around 16 if I remember right. I'll check it again.

I have a Kessil H380 about 12 inches above the water level in my fuge. I was running it about 6 hours a night to start. I sure grew some green algae in the glass that wasn't shielded from the light.

My source water is good as far as I know (RO/DI). I've tested if for PO4 and nitrate and get nothing (sometimes like 1 or 2 ppb with the Hanna ULR but I think that's zero or close....noise in the analysis I believe). So big water change like 30-40%? My usual water change schedule was 15 gallons every 2 weeks but I've done them at like 30 gallons at a time before. Not sure which is best.

With a cell phone you can stick the camera to the lens. Its a pain but it works. Video works too, just upload to youtube if you have gmail account or vimeo.

Yes, try another nitrate test kit.

The Kessil H380 is a powerful light, start at 4 hours for the first few days then increase 1 hour every day after till you reach 8 hours and see how it goes.

Without doing a water change it could also mean you are Iron deficient and with the water change will help replenish iron. Whatever water change you did before this at the frequency you are comfortable with is fine. Maybe start with 15 gallons a week for the first 2 weeks then go back to bi-weekly.

Don't forget the picture of the algae growths.;)
 

reeferfoxx

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Just recap for newcomers...

Things to focus on when thinking you have dinos.
  1. ID your dinos. $12 microscope from Amazon will help. $80 microscope will help more.
  2. Check your nutrients. If N or P are very low dose to no3 = 10 and po4 = 0.08-0.10ppm
  3. If nutrients are limited remove any bio media(bio-pellets, nitrate reducers) or chemical media(GFO, or aluminum based po4 removers), might even remove the ATS or refugium if it's not performing due to low nutrients.
  4. Nitrates can be potassium nitrate(Hardware store Stump Remover but not limited to) or Sodium Nitrate(Amazon)
  5. Phosphates can be potassium phosphate(Seachem phosphorus but not limited to Seachem)
  6. Run GAC or granulated activated carbon.
  7. Don't over feed fish and coral
  8. Think of ways to replenish biodiversity and microbial diversity. Garf Grunge, Fiji Mud, Live Rock.
  9. Make sure you have extra test kits. You'll be testing on the daily.
  10. Research UV sterilizer. One of the best tools to help rid your tank.
Things you DON'T need to do.
  1. Reduce lighting in any way.
  2. Dose chemicals.
  3. Dose nutrient reducers.
  4. Magical bottles of wasted dollars.
  5. Black outs.
  6. pH increases.
  7. GFO
  8. Temperature adjustments
  9. Freak out
  10. Start over
 

Jolanta

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Ok good! haha! ;Happy

Ok that 'cap' is 5mL not 6mL.

You also said you had chaeto growing? Sounds like it is consuming available phosphate. Like taricha said, organic phosphate(fish/coral food) cannot be tested. Only after so long it converts to inorganic phosphate(can be tested with hanna checker. Seachem Phosphorus is inorganic phosphate). It might be too soon to have chaeto growing if phosphate is limiting factor. Also, to reduce coral reaction from seach phosphorus, dose at night when lights are off and in morning before lights on. Seachem phosphorus does not contain any food so it won't make a feeding response. The importance of phosphate for stony coral is the corals ability to use phosphate in its stony skeleton as well as nitrate in the form of calcium phosphate/nitrate precipitation. Too much nutrient restricts growth. Too little restricts growth. Healthy po4 levels are 0.02 - 0.08ppm. No3 is 1-10ppm. No3 can be higher but will cause coral to brown out. Coral colors aren't important with battling dinos.



With a cell phone you can stick the camera to the lens. Its a pain but it works. Video works too, just upload to youtube if you have gmail account or vimeo.

Yes, try another nitrate test kit.

The Kessil H380 is a powerful light, start at 4 hours for the first few days then increase 1 hour every day after till you reach 8 hours and see how it goes.

Without doing a water change it could also mean you are Iron deficient and with the water change will help replenish iron. Whatever water change you did before this at the frequency you are comfortable with is fine. Maybe start with 15 gallons a week for the first 2 weeks then go back to bi-weekly.

Don't forget the picture of the algae growths.;)
Thank you, now Im trying add phosphorus to my ato and make it more stable, today it messured 0.01 and my corals didnt close so we will see couse adding it directly in the tank had a bad response. Hope my nitrates go down and my phosphate go up with the dosing.
 

promptcritical

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Ok good! haha! ;Happy

With a cell phone you can stick the camera to the lens. Its a pain but it works. Video works too, just upload to youtube if you have gmail account or vimeo.

Yes, try another nitrate test kit.

The Kessil H380 is a powerful light, start at 4 hours for the first few days then increase 1 hour every day after till you reach 8 hours and see how it goes.

Without doing a water change it could also mean you are Iron deficient and with the water change will help replenish iron. Whatever water change you did before this at the frequency you are comfortable with is fine. Maybe start with 15 gallons a week for the first 2 weeks then go back to bi-weekly.

Don't forget the picture of the algae growths.;)
Would it be advisable to vacuum the sand while doing water changes? I've had both sides of that subject recommended. The offenders seem to congregate in the sand (also the glass and some on the rocks), especially in the low flow areas. Also, if I was to install a UV, should it be running in the display tank or is the sump okay? I appreciate you taking the time to answer my sometimes not very informed questions. Thanks you.
 

reeferfoxx

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Would it be advisable to vacuum the sand while doing water changes? I've had both sides of that subject recommended.
Depends on what is growing and how deep your sandbed is.

To get the best out of UV is to run it from the display.

If whatever you have is growing in low flow areas, try and come up with ways to get more flow to those areas.
 
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mcarroll

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@mcarroll when you say gravel vacuuming do you mean just the top surface of the sand or do a deep vacuum of the sand bed?

Depends.... @promptcritical was wondering too.

Swirl your finger or something around in the sand bed in a few logical places...bases of rocks, under flow sources like powerheads and return outlets, etc. If you get any amount of detritus – a cloud of any color besides pure ultra-white – then vacuum the bed like it was a freshwater tank. Clean it out. Figure out a solution to improve flow...more velocity is the idea, not necessarily more GPH.

On the other hand, if all you get is either nothing or a pure, ultra-white cloud of aragonite then you can probably just siphon the algae bloom off the surface and be fine.

it's about P & N, and those low nutrient tanks from the perspective of fighting dino battles.

Awesome post. :)

in my big tank I dont have dino problems but its very phosphate limited, my nitrates rise with food but my phosphates dont, thay read 0 or 1 on my hanna ulr phosphorus, my sps corals look pale and some will str

Just to throw another idea out, not to contradict any others, this could simply be a slight phosphate limitation.....preventing the nitrates from being used down to zero.

If you don't have any algae or dino's to worry about, I think I'd attempt feeding your corals something excellent rather than tweaking dissolved nutrient levels. Consider anything that will be excellent at staying adrift until eaten, like (live) baby brine shrimp or ROE. Do you have a @Reef Nutrition near you?

I have a question on "nutrient balance." I get that too low is bad. How high is too high (bad)?

"too high" involves a component of time, not just a ppm reading.

For example, there are reefs, like the notable one at the Steinhart Aquarium that run N and P levels in the triple digits.

They did not arrive at those numbers in a spike though....in other words, they most likely built up to that within the scope of a stable, healthy reef system over time.

At least in the scope of our tanks, algae are generally better at capitalizing on short term "disturbances" (via faster growth, greater nutrient storage abilities, etc) and corals are generally more likely to be slowed down by disturbances.

"Disturbances" are anything that disrupts the natural rhythm of things.

Our tanks are one big disturbance until we take measures to stabilize them.

Adding large amounts of livestock and making big lighting changes are two of the most common disturbances we cause while we try to stabilize our new tanks. We mostly don't think about the elementary activities of turning on the lights and adding fish in this way. But we should – both are huge disturbances with more or less predictable outcomes. ;)

I've been adding about 15ml of photo from Algae Barn 3 times a week.

A few have done it in coincidence with dino's clearing up, but my guess is that it's doing little more than feeding the bloom. Dino's can consume the cells directly, or they'll consume the bacteria that break the phyto down after it settles. If it seems to be helping, then keep it up, but be on the lookout for the opposite.
 

Javamahn

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Hey dwest,
My tank is progressing very well but it has taken a long time compared to some others. You are correct, I did add the larger UV which took care of some of my dinos (ostreopsis, coolia and prorocentrum) pretty quickly but I continued to battle others including large cell and small cell amphidinium along with what I believe are/were gyrodinium and gymnodinium. Fortunately I didn't see much effect of toxins from these so I felt I could start moving forward with the tank again and started to add some corals in November.

I had removed my sand bend previously and cannot definitively say whether it helped or not.

As far as dino-x; I did some testing with it and added a drop to a slide with the small cell amphidinium and saw an instant impact then followed up by adding 2 drops to the sample cup and checking under the scope and finding the same results. I did 9 doses on the display following the directions. I did see a reduction in the numbers and found dead amphidinium in my samples but plenty of live ones as well. I also found it to be very harsh to the corals, especially the remaining sps pieces. In the end I lost all but 2 pieces of sps and still had dinos. My recommendation from personal experience is not to use it.
I continued with maintaining nutrient levels for many months and ended up with a severe cyano outbreak but had issues with getting any green algae to grow. I believe the length of re-establishing a natural balance is tied to the condition of the tank when you begin battling. I had fought dinos for so long and tried so many different things I feel my microfauna population was pretty much decimated.

I continued to siphon the cyano and dinos out with water changes. I also purchased some 1 micron filter socks and would siphon the water through them to cut down on the amount of water changes I was doing, salt gets expensive. I felt I needed to try something else as I believe the cyano was consuming the nutrients and preventing green algae from growing and some of the dinos were heavily tied to the cyano. I went ahead a did a 3 day lights out and would blast the rocks in the morning and night with the 1 micron socks installed. I only left the 1 micron socks in for maybe an hour after blasting the rocks then went back to my standard filter socks. This helped to knock the cyano way back and I finally started to get some green algae growth shortly after. Cyano started to slowly creep back in and I did one more two day lights out with the same routine of blasting the rocks I did previously.

It has been about a month since I did the second lights out. I sit today with some minimal cyano growth along with small amounts of green algae on a few rocks. The tangs and snails keep the green algae pretty well under control though. I see very limited signs of any dino growth at this point as well. I do need to put a sample under the scope to see what it what though. I'm sure there are still a few dinos still lurking but they are well controlled at this point. I have let my nutrient levels fall naturally. Nitrate levels are in the 5 - 10 range though phosphates are pretty low again. I do add small doses of phosphates but am comfortable with the lower levels since I do have some green algae which I know is consuming it. Adding larger doses of phosphates at this point just fuels the cyano growth. the amphipod population has exploded and the rocks are crawling with them after lights out. I also see copepods on the glass at night when the glass is dirty.

I plan to add a sand bed back soon but will go with live sand from TBS to increase the tank diversity along with about 25 pounds of new live rock from TBS as well. I don't want to add dry sand at this point as I am afraid it would give any remaining dinos a blank slate on which to populate. The corals I have added are all doing great and growing. Will soon be adding more fish as well as I lost some during earlier treatment attempts (metro proved very destructive for me).

Sorry for such a long response but wanted to be a clear as possible on everything I have done. It can be a long battle but in this case slow and steady wins the race.
Don't hesitate to shoot me a PM if you have any questions.

Edit: I did want to add that I continue to run the UV and will permanently

Beardo thanks for the post. Have you tried any of the commercial "muds" that profess to increase biodiversity?
 

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Depends.... @promptcritical was wondering too.

Swirl your finger or something around in the sand bed in a few logical places...bases of rocks, under flow sources like powerheads and return outlets, etc. If you get any amount of detritus – a cloud of any color besides pure ultra-white – then vacuum the bed like it was a freshwater tank. Clean it out. Figure out a solution to improve flow...more velocity is the idea, not necessarily more GPH.

On the other hand, if all you get is either nothing or a pure, ultra-white cloud of aragonite then you can probably just siphon the algae bloom off the surface and be fine.



Awesome post. :)



Just to throw another idea out, not to contradict any others, this could simply be a slight phosphate limitation.....preventing the nitrates from being used down to zero.

If you don't have any algae or dino's to worry about, I think I'd attempt feeding your corals something excellent rather than tweaking dissolved nutrient levels. Consider anything that will be excellent at staying adrift until eaten, like (live) baby brine shrimp or ROE. Do you have a @Reef Nutrition near you?



"too high" involves a component of time, not just a ppm reading.

For example, there are reefs, like the notable one at the Steinhart Aquarium that run N and P levels in the triple digits.

They did not arrive at those numbers in a spike though....in other words, they most likely built up to that within the scope of a stable, healthy reef system over time.

At least in the scope of our tanks, algae are generally better at capitalizing on short term "disturbances" (via faster growth, greater nutrient storage abilities, etc) and corals are generally more likely to be slowed down by disturbances.

"Disturbances" are anything that disrupts the natural rhythm of things.

Our tanks are one big disturbance until we take measures to stabilize them.

Adding large amounts of livestock and making big lighting changes are two of the most common disturbances we cause while we try to stabilize our new tanks. We mostly don't think about the elementary activities of turning on the lights and adding fish in this way. But we should – both are huge disturbances with more or less predictable outcomes. ;)



A few have done it in coincidence with dino's clearing up, but my guess is that it's doing little more than feeding the bloom. Dino's can consume the cells directly, or they'll consume the bacteria that break the phyto down after it settles. If it seems to be helping, then keep it up, but be on the lookout for the opposite.
Thanks Mcaroll, I try to rise my phoshate with reef roids, home made fish food and they want go up, I bought zeo aminos and vitalizer and was adding them with hope my corals will get better but it seems all I do its getting worst. I cant buy any othrer coral food in my town.
 

promptcritical

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Depends.... @promptcritical was wondering too.

Swirl your finger or something around in the sand bed in a few logical places...bases of rocks, under flow sources like powerheads and return outlets, etc. If you get any amount of detritus – a cloud of any color besides pure ultra-white – then vacuum the bed like it was a freshwater tank. Clean it out. Figure out a solution to improve flow...more velocity is the idea, not necessarily more GPH.
On the other hand, if all you get is either nothing or a pure, ultra-white cloud of aragonite then you can probably just siphon the algae bloom off the surface and be fine.

A few have done it in coincidence with dino's clearing up, but my guess is that it's doing little more than feeding the bloom. Dino's can consume the cells directly, or they'll consume the bacteria that break the phyto down after it settles. If it seems to be helping, then keep it up, but be on the lookout for the opposite.
I suspect that the phyto has made things worse. I stopped adding it last week because it looked like it was blooming more. Thanks.
 

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Just recap for newcomers...

Things to focus on when thinking you have dinos.
  1. ID your dinos. $12 microscope from Amazon will help. $80 microscope will help more.
  2. Check your nutrients. If N or P are very low dose to no3 = 10 and po4 = 0.08-0.10ppm
  3. If nutrients are limited remove any bio media(bio-pellets, nitrate reducers) or chemical media(GFO, or aluminum based po4 removers), might even remove the ATS or refugium if it's not performing due to low nutrients.
  4. Nitrates can be potassium nitrate(Hardware store Stump Remover but not limited to) or Sodium Nitrate(Amazon)
  5. Phosphates can be potassium phosphate(Seachem phosphorus but not limited to Seachem)
  6. Run GAC or granulated activated carbon.
  7. Don't over feed fish and coral
  8. Think of ways to replenish biodiversity and microbial diversity. Garf Grunge, Fiji Mud, Live Rock.
  9. Make sure you have extra test kits. You'll be testing on the daily.
  10. Research UV sterilizer. One of the best tools to help rid your tank.
Things you DON'T need to do.
  1. Reduce lighting in any way.
  2. Dose chemicals.
  3. Dose nutrient reducers.
  4. Magical bottles of wasted dollars.
  5. Black outs.
  6. pH increases.
  7. GFO
  8. Temperature adjustments
  9. Freak out
  10. Start over

@reeferfoxx Awesome check list! I had a question though...

Can I still run Purigen and GAC? I have detectable nitrates (No3= 10ppm), but my PO4 is showing 0. Like the vial is clear in my red sea test kit.

I am going to pull my ClearFX Pro, it's like Chemipure blue so its a blend of 3: Granulated Activated Carbon, Phosphate Removing Resin, Organic Scavenger Resin (I'm assuming for Nitrates/Ammonia). So in it's place I wanted to run GAC and Purigen.
 
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promptcritical

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With a cell phone you can stick the camera to the lens. Its a pain but it works. Video works too, just upload to youtube if you have gmail account or vimeo.

Yes, try another nitrate test kit.

The Kessil H380 is a powerful light, start at 4 hours for the first few days then increase 1 hour every day after till you reach 8 hours and see how it goes.

Without doing a water change it could also mean you are Iron deficient and with the water change will help replenish iron. Whatever water change you did before this at the frequency you are comfortable with is fine. Maybe start with 15 gallons a week for the first 2 weeks then go back to bi-weekly.

Don't forget the picture of the algae growths.;)
I didn't get home before lights out tonight so no picture of the algae. I'll try tomorrow.

I did test NO3 with my Red Sea Pro kit (drum roll....): 32ppm. I didn't realize it had gone that high (Nyos showed between 12 and 25, so it's fairly consistent between the two I suppose), but I'm not surprised since I haven't really done any NO3 removal in months. So a series of water changes to try to bring NO3 down? Slowly or fastly?? Thanks.
 

reeferfoxx

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I didn't get home before lights out tonight so no picture of the algae. I'll try tomorrow.

I did test NO3 with my Red Sea Pro kit (drum roll....): 32ppm. I didn't realize it had gone that high (Nyos showed between 12 and 25, so it's fairly consistent between the two I suppose), but I'm not surprised since I haven't really done any NO3 removal in months. So a series of water changes to try to bring NO3 down? Slowly or fastly?? Thanks.
It would be beneficial to get an idea of what is growing before any major changes should be made. But at the same time, performing normal maintenance isn't a risk of failure in any direction. Getting parameters back to normal ranges would be advised. At the same time, we've heard of other reefers getting dinos with high nutrients. Though, never ID'd. If in fact you do have dinos, your ID would be very beneficial.
 

Paullawr

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Thanks Mcaroll, I try to rise my phoshate with reef roids, home made fish food and they want go up, I bought zeo aminos and vitalizer and was adding them with hope my corals will get better but it seems all I do its getting worst. I cant buy any othrer coral food in my town.
Are you still having issues Jolanta.
 

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Depends.... @promptcritical was wondering too.

Swirl your finger or something around in the sand bed in a few logical places...bases of rocks, under flow sources like powerheads and return outlets, etc. If you get any amount of detritus – a cloud of any color besides pure ultra-white – then vacuum the bed like it was a freshwater tank. Clean it out. Figure out a solution to improve flow...more velocity is the idea, not necessarily more GPH.

On the other hand, if all you get is either nothing or a pure, ultra-white cloud of aragonite then you can probably just siphon the algae bloom off the surface and be fine.



Awesome post. :)



Just to throw another idea out, not to contradict any others, this could simply be a slight phosphate limitation.....preventing the nitrates from being used down to zero.

If you don't have any algae or dino's to worry about, I think I'd attempt feeding your corals something excellent rather than tweaking dissolved nutrient levels. Consider anything that will be excellent at staying adrift until eaten, like (live) baby brine shrimp or ROE. Do you have a @Reef Nutrition near you?



"too high" involves a component of time, not just a ppm reading.

For example, there are reefs, like the notable one at the Steinhart Aquarium that run N and P levels in the triple digits.

They did not arrive at those numbers in a spike though....in other words, they most likely built up to that within the scope of a stable, healthy reef system over time.

At least in the scope of our tanks, algae are generally better at capitalizing on short term "disturbances" (via faster growth, greater nutrient storage abilities, etc) and corals are generally more likely to be slowed down by disturbances.

"Disturbances" are anything that disrupts the natural rhythm of things.

Our tanks are one big disturbance until we take measures to stabilize them.

Adding large amounts of livestock and making big lighting changes are two of the most common disturbances we cause while we try to stabilize our new tanks. We mostly don't think about the elementary activities of turning on the lights and adding fish in this way. But we should – both are huge disturbances with more or less predictable outcomes. ;)



A few have done it in coincidence with dino's clearing up, but my guess is that it's doing little more than feeding the bloom. Dino's can consume the cells directly, or they'll consume the bacteria that break the phyto down after it settles. If it seems to be helping, then keep it up, but be on the lookout for the opposite.
Depends.... @promptcritical was wondering too.

Swirl your finger or something around in the sand bed in a few logical places...bases of rocks, under flow sources like powerheads and return outlets, etc. If you get any amount of detritus – a cloud of any color besides pure ultra-white – then vacuum the bed like it was a freshwater tank. Clean it out. Figure out a solution to improve flow...more velocity is the idea, not necessarily more GPH.

On the other hand, if all you get is either nothing or a pure, ultra-white cloud of aragonite then you can probably just siphon the algae bloom off the surface and be fine.



Awesome post. :)



Just to throw another idea out, not to contradict any others, this could simply be a slight phosphate limitation.....preventing the nitrates from being used down to zero.

If you don't have any algae or dino's to worry about, I think I'd attempt feeding your corals something excellent rather than tweaking dissolved nutrient levels. Consider anything that will be excellent at staying adrift until eaten, like (live) baby brine shrimp or ROE. Do you have a @Reef Nutrition near you?



"too high" involves a component of time, not just a ppm reading.

For example, there are reefs, like the notable one at the Steinhart Aquarium that run N and P levels in the triple digits.

They did not arrive at those numbers in a spike though....in other words, they most likely built up to that within the scope of a stable, healthy reef system over time.

At least in the scope of our tanks, algae are generally better at capitalizing on short term "disturbances" (via faster growth, greater nutrient storage abilities, etc) and corals are generally more likely to be slowed down by disturbances.

"Disturbances" are anything that disrupts the natural rhythm of things.

Our tanks are one big disturbance until we take measures to stabilize them.

Adding large amounts of livestock and making big lighting changes are two of the most common disturbances we cause while we try to stabilize our new tanks. We mostly don't think about the elementary activities of turning on the lights and adding fish in this way. But we should – both are huge disturbances with more or less predictable outcomes. ;)



A few have done it in coincidence with dino's clearing up, but my guess is that it's doing little more than feeding the bloom. Dino's can consume the cells directly, or they'll consume the bacteria that break the phyto down after it settles. If it seems to be helping, then keep it up, but be on the lookout for the opposite.
 

HomeSlizzice

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Another question...

What about adding in Ozone? Would an Ozone generator help with Dino's?
 

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My dinos are slowly fading. Some days better than others. I have a 120 display plumbed to a 40 breeder refugium packed with macros also have a 40 breeder sump. Been keeping nitrates at around 10-16ppm and phosphate at 0.07-0.1 for a number of months now. Added some garf grunge to the fuge about a month ago. One thing I’ve been wondering is why do the dinos only visually show up in the DT and not the fuge or sumo? My return pump feeds both the fuge and DT, the fuge is on an opposite light cycle. I cranked up the flow to my fuge yesterday to see what effect it may have on the total system. Anybody have any ideas?
 
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