Dinoflagellates – Are You Tired Of Battling Altogether?

Chaz D

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I keep reading that adding nitrates/phosphates helps, however all the literature out there shows most dinos like ammonia/nitrates and phosphates...with a preference for ammonia. 99% of the posts in this forum feature brown snot, white dead, or partially deadrock or tanks and with little to no rock work. The addition of bacterial products has helped some people temporarily. Could it be that most have inadequate biological filtration and we're all overthinking this?
 

reeferfoxx

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I keep reading that adding nitrates/phosphates helps, however all the literature out there shows most dinos like ammonia/nitrates and phosphates...with a preference for ammonia. 99% of the posts in this forum feature brown snot, white dead, or partially deadrock or tanks and with little to no rock work. The addition of bacterial products has helped some people temporarily. Could it be that most have inadequate biological filtration and we're all overthinking this?
Loaded question. Though you aren't wrong per se. Availability of nutrients helps more than just Dino's and the main assumption here is the tank is already cycled.
 

Brew12

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I keep reading that adding nitrates/phosphates helps, however all the literature out there shows most dinos like ammonia/nitrates and phosphates...with a preference for ammonia. 99% of the posts in this forum feature brown snot, white dead, or partially deadrock or tanks and with little to no rock work. The addition of bacterial products has helped some people temporarily. Could it be that most have inadequate biological filtration and we're all overthinking this?
You raise an interesting point and I do agree that the root cause is inadequate biological filtration. I think we may disagree on the method of biological filtration. I tend to fall into the new school of thought that very little ammonia is processed by nitrifying bacteria in a mature reef tank. Corals, microalgae, macroalgae and other phytoplanktons all also consume ammonia directly and likely much faster than nitrifying bacteria. Once a tank reaches that level of biological diversity, dinoflagellates are unlikely to thrive unless the hobbyists creates an issue. So, I do feel your statement is correct but that the lack of these microalgae and macroalgaes are missing part causing inadequate biological filtration.

Most dinoflagellate and cyanobacteria blooms that happen in nature are due to either nitrogen rich or phosphorus rich nutrients from fertilizer run off. When the nutrients are better balanced it can create algae issues, but generally not the harmful kind. This is why I feel that maintaining measurable amounts of NO3 and PO4 is important when dealing with either issue.
 

Chaz D

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I think we may disagree on the method of biological filtration. I tend to fall into the new school of thought that very little ammonia is processed by nitrifying bacteria in a mature reef tank. Corals, microalgae, macroalgae and other phytoplanktons all also consume ammonia directly and likely much faster than nitrifying bacteria. .

I think we're saying the same thing. The vast majority of tanks I see here with dinos lack biodiversity...not even close to what one would term "mature". A few white rocks and a couple of 1" frags aren't going to help process ammonia efficiently, even if the tank is otherwise "cycled". Wouldn't the additional help of extra bio-filtration help to compensate?
 

Brew12

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I think we're saying the same thing. The vast majority of tanks I see here with dinos lack biodiversity...not even close to what one would term "mature". A few white rocks and a couple of 1" frags aren't going to help process ammonia efficiently, even if the tank is otherwise "cycled". Wouldn't the additional help of extra bio-filtration help to compensate?
We are saying the same thing. Some people only consider nitrifying bacteria as their bio-filtration and don't consider all the other parts so I was making sure to clarify that. By pushing the nitrates and phosphates to measurable levels the goal is to try and ensure there are enough nutrients to support growing that needed bio-filtration in a healthy way.
 

reeferfoxx

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I agree. To have a healthy tank, a biofiltration should be established. To avoid dinos, don't let P drop to unmeasurable levels...
 

CDavmd

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I think we're saying the same thing. The vast majority of tanks I see here with dinos lack biodiversity...not even close to what one would term "mature". A few white rocks and a couple of 1" frags aren't going to help process ammonia efficiently, even if the tank is otherwise "cycled". Wouldn't the additional help of extra bio-filtration help to compensate?

Many variables at play. Yes you are seeing Dino’s on many immature sterile systems on this thread but do not assume that mature systems are immune. It is the imbalance of nutrients that can trigger the Dino takeover.

My system for example is 12 years old. It was started with 1.5 pounds per gallon of “ocean true live” Fiji and Marshall island rock from back in the day when it was possible to get this.

It is mainly an LPS tank that has thrived and is overpopulated with corals.

I went through various methods of nutrient control over the years including refugium with IPSF sand and pods etc... I started vodka dosing way back when the idea first came about and later switched to Nopox when it was mainstream.

I never had a Dino problem until....

I left “she who must be obeyed” in charge while I was away for a week. She unfortunately double dosed the NOPOX and bottomed our the nutrients.

I came home to faded monti’s and the few SPS sticks I had. Phosphate and nitrate were zero. No film algae on glass, no turf anywhere. The system was cleaner than it ever looked. A few days later brown spots. At first I thought it was diatoms until I looked under the microscope and saw the jerks! Amphidinium!

It took close to 9 months to get them under control. I tried all the usual things listed in this thread. It was finally keeping nutrients elevated and finally seeing the return of film and turf algae that suppressed the amphidinium.

I kept close track of everything and posted this graph in the amphidinium thread. Essentially here was a mature system with ocean live rock that became affected only after nutrients became scarce.

2a1eace41668c6a1d1eb44824672f3a8.jpg
 

Chaz D

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Without the nitrates and phosphates in the system, what were the dinos consuming if not ammonia?
 
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Trevor40

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I dosed PO4 and tested and now have 2.5!! haha :rolleyes: I hope the sudden increase doesn't upset the acros or cause any crazy bacteria bloom.
 

Brew12

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Without the nitrates and phosphates in the system, what were the dinos consuming if not ammonia?
It has a lot to do with how nutrients are gathered and processed. For instance, some dino's will consume phytoplankton and bacteria to gain nutrients. Many problematic strains of dino's are also able to thrive on much lower levels of phosphates than other organisms. For instance, the Redfield ratio says that marine plankton is made up of a 16:1 ratio of nitrogen to phosphorus. Some species of dino's have a ratio of 50:1 so they need much less phosphorus to thrive. Combine this with the phosphorus that dino's may gain by preying on other organisms and it becomes easier to see why they thrive in phosphate limited conditions.
 

reeferfoxx

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Without the nitrates and phosphates in the system, what were the dinos consuming if not ammonia?
Dinos can consume other bacteria and organisms for food. Usually when it gets to that point you see the long brown snot or nutrient trap as we see it.
 

CDavmd

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Without the nitrates and phosphates in the system, what were the dinos consuming if not ammonia?

As others have answered. Dinoflagellates have the ability to thrive in very low nutrient environments. In particular low phosphate due to there multiple mechanisms for energy production one of which is bacterivory.
 

Brew12

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Any idea why dosing Mono Potassium Phosphate(KH2PO4)would cause a pH drop?
IMG_8171.JPG
Potassium Phosphate is basic, not acidic, so if anything it would raise pH I think.

Any chance your tank went dry? Or did you dispense a large volume of the solution right over the pH probe?
 

CDavmd

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That looks more like a hardware issue. Nothing would cause a drop like that.

Actually any acid added to the tank if concentrated enough can cause a pH swing like that.

How much did you add?

A 1% solution of KH2PO4 has a pH of 4.4-4.8 which is acidic. Remember it is a salt that will dissociate into K+ PO4 and two H+
 

CDavmd

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Potassium Phosphate is basic, not acidic, so if anything it would raise pH I think.

Any chance your tank went dry? Or did you dispense a large volume of the solution right over the pH probe?

No it is acidic. It is used in fertilizers to keep ammonia from escaping by maintaining a low pH.
 

Brew12

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No it is acidic. It is used in fertilizers to keep ammonia from escaping by maintaining a low pH.
Good call! I typed in K2HPO4 instead of KH2PO4.
 

Trevor40

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Potassium Phosphate is basic, not acidic, so if anything it would raise pH I think.

Any chance your tank went dry? Or did you dispense a large volume of the solution right over the pH probe?
I added it to the sump in the chamber after the pH probe. I guess it is possible for the pH to affect the water in the opposite direction of the flow. If it truly did lower my tank pH to 7.29 then I would expect the fish and corals to show immediate signs of stress?

The tank is 240 gallons and I added 2 Tablespoons of mixed powder. After I added it I realized that my calculation was wrong and then I checked the PO4 level at 2.5 and was shocked.

I definitely have more polyp extension from the acros. I bet the dinos have been starving them from PO4.
 
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