Dinoflagellates – Are You Tired Of Battling Altogether?

[reeferfoxx]

thanks, maybe it was my wwc shipment, all started when i put it in the tank any specific brand or place people buy N and P from? my UV is in the mail so ill have it hooked up by the weekend.

i can remove the marine pure, what about the cheato fuge?

Chaeto is a back and forth for me. Its a way to reduce nutrients and therefore might be counter productive in keeping nutrients stable. But it can also aid as a refugium for microorganisms. I would remove it but its up to you.

There are some nutrient dosing suggestions in the first post to this thread. Sodium nitrate and potassium phosphorus are my go tos.

 

[reeferfoxx]

Thanks. I’ve started raising my nutrients and shortened my lighting schedule but it seems to be getting worse. I think I will try Dino X and see if that helps.

Cool. Dino X takes a long time. Much longer than UV

 

[Burrito]

Would either the brightwell or seachem line work shown here? I didn’t see recommendations on the first page and saw many throughout the thread

 

[Scottybgood]

Would either the brightwell or seachem line work shown here? I didn’t see recommendations on the first page and saw many throughout the thread

I use Brightwell NeoPhos for PO4 and just mixed up Stump Remover for Nitrates, but betting NeoNitro would be as good but maybe not as cheap but no hassle in mixing up a specific solution.

 

[paulsz]

I've been going at the Dinos for well over month. I'm dosing well over 0.1ppm of PO4 a day. My NO3 are holding at about 10-15. PO4 keeps dropping to 0.03 every day (salifert kit).

Green hair algae has been growing for the last two weeks or so, but the Dinos are still growing. And very long too. They're on the sand, rocks and even on top of the green algae that is growing on the corner overflow

Is that normal? Do I keep going? I'm manually removing every day by blowing the rocks and then siphoning over the sand (not in the sand) to catch what I can from the surface. However, it's not grabbing onto much, as they seem to be stuck to the substrate

 

[sensei]

@reeferfoxx

Hello reeferfoxx,
I am having problem with Dinos, I placed a couple questions and comments in a new thread and would like your comments.
the thread is:

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/are-these-dinos.521191/

please tell me if I need to post the comments and photos in this thread so you can give me your feedback or if you can answer in the other one I started?

thanks

 

[dwest]

@reeferfoxx

Hello reeferfoxx,
I am having problem with Dinos, I placed a couple questions and comments in a new thread and would like your comments.
the thread is:

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/are-these-dinos.521191/

please tell me if I need to post the comments and photos in this thread so you can give me your feedback or if you can answer in the other one I started?

thanks

@sensei I think it’s smart to continue on this thread so your information can be found easier. You are trying something new that others may want to try if successful.

 

[dwest]

I've been going at the Dinos for well over month. I'm dosing well over 0.1ppm of PO4 a day. My NO3 are holding at about 10-15. PO4 keeps dropping to 0.03 every day (salifert kit).

Green hair algae has been growing for the last two weeks or so, but the Dinos are still growing. And very long too. They're on the sand, rocks and even on top of the green algae that is growing on the corner overflow

Is that normal? Do I keep going? I'm manually removing every day by blowing the rocks and then siphoning over the sand (not in the sand) to catch what I can from the surface. However, it's not grabbing onto much, as they seem to be stuck to the substrate

Keep nutrients up and keep doing manual removal. I would make sure to have GAC in system and change it weekly for poison control. Have you identified them with a microscope? Have you tried UV?

 

[paulsz]

Keep nutrients up and keep doing manual removal. I would make sure to have GAC in system and change it weekly for poison control. Have you identified them with a microscope? Have you tried UV?

I haven't tried UV. I would only invest in one if it was absolutely necessary and guaranteed (especially if it's going to have to be a permanent installation). I do have GAC that i was changing bi-weekly. I'll make it weekly. And i'll keep my nitrates and phosphates up. It's just weird that i have to dose 0.1 ppm worth of phosphates daily for it to show up on my salifert test kit as 0.03 the next day. Especially since i've been dosing it for a good month or so.

And yes i've identified them with a microscope. Somewhere earlier in this thread. They are prorocentrum

 

[dwest]

I haven't tried UV. I would only invest in one if it was absolutely necessary and guaranteed (especially if it's going to have to be a permanent installation). I do have GAC that i was changing bi-weekly. I'll make it weekly. And i'll keep my nitrates and phosphates up. It's just weird that i have to dose 0.1 ppm worth of phosphates daily for it to show up on my salifert test kit as 0.03 the next day. Especially since i've been dosing it for a good month or so.

And yes i've identified them with a microscope. Somewhere earlier in this thread. They are prorocentrum

You’ll certainly not get any guarantees with dinos. I THINK prorocentrum is one type that UV would help, but you would have to research this thread to know better. UV is expensive, but many have used the 55w jebao with success. I think you can get that for about 70 bucks or so. Probably good for up to a 120 gallon tank if plumbed from DT back to DT.

I have similar phosphate dosing experience. I also am amazed...

Good luck!

 

[paulsz]

You’ll certainly not get any guarantees with dinos. I THINK prorocentrum is one type that UV would help, but you would have to research this thread to know better. UV is expensive, but many have used the 55w jebao with success. I think you can get that for about 70 bucks or so. Probably good for up to a 120 gallon tank if plumbed from DT back to DT.

I have similar phosphate dosing experience. I also am amazed...

Good luck!

I have a UV sterilizer for my backyard pond. Since i'm winterizing the pond now, would I be able to give that a try on my reef tank or would it be a waste of time? I have to get a new bulb for it anyways, so I may as well give it a try on the tank over the winter.

 

[Chiz]

I have a UV sterilizer for my backyard pond. Since i'm winterizing the pond now, would I be able to give that a try on my reef tank or would it be a waste of time? I have to get a new bulb for it anyways, so I may as well give it a try on the tank over the winter.

I would be cautious about using you pond UV. My pond pipe work/pumps/UV etc all have a build up of crud, I don’t think I would be able to clean it well enough to put on the tank.

 

[dwest]

I have a UV sterilizer for my backyard pond. Since i'm winterizing the pond now, would I be able to give that a try on my reef tank or would it be a waste of time? I have to get a new bulb for it anyways, so I may as well give it a try on the tank over the winter.

I think if you clean it very well, you should try it. I would pump somewhere between 1-3 tank volumes per hour through the system from DT right back to DT. Many see fast improvements when doing this if the UV is large enough (1 watt per 3 gallons ish).

Glad to see someone else likes ponds too!

 

[paulsz]

I think if you clean it very well, you should try it. I would pump somewhere between 1-3 tank volumes per hour through the system from DT right back to DT. Many see fast improvements when doing this if the UV is large enough (1 watt per 3 gallons ish).

Glad to see someone else likes ponds too!

I'll give it a good clean tonight and get it setup this weekend.

And yes haha. It's a small pond but it keeps me entertained in the summer. Nothing better than listening to water splash while relaxing in the backyard

 

[sensei]

Hello,
Here is my case:
I started my tank 3 years ago with dry rock, I have been through different cycles but this week I believe I have Dinos.
I noted an problem when my zoas showed this up skirts look :

After this I did 3 consecutive Water changes of 55g each in case there was something in the water, but there was no improvement and I noticed rocks were covered with a rusty brown color kind of film with a lot of bubbles, however it does not have the stringly slimy look as many Dinos photos I have seen. @dwest recommended to look in microscope. and I found this:
10x photo

100x photo

they move and seems that they like moving in kind of circles.

system water volume is 600g Bare Bottom, and I have two display tanks in same system that share the same sump.
alk 7.8, mag 1395, cal 400 NO3= 5, PO4= 0.05
I run skimmer, dose vodka since 3 months ago and have a 4 cube ATS installed

since 2 days ago I have done a couple of things:
1.- I added GAC in sump
2.- I reduced the dose of Carbon dosing from 200ml of vinegar equivalent to 180ml vinegar equivalent per day
3.- I have added two UV lamps of 36Watts each at the end of the biggest display tank ( tank is 10feet long)

In addition, I read an idea of @Velcro about using filters to filter dinos out and I tried the idea yesterday.

I installed a 10 micron filter cartridge and a sterilizing 0.22 micron cartridge at the end to filter water in tank for around 4 hours. I blowed rocks with powerhead to try make sure Dinos were in water column so they would get trapped in filter. I was afraid to run it more time because it will strip all particles from water column and I am not sure sps would handle that.

Questions:
1.- I need to confirm I have Dinos and What kind from the photo posted above?
2.- I need to know what to do next?

Thanks a lot

 

[reeferfoxx]

Hello,
Here is my case:
I started my tank 3 years ago with dry rock, I have been through different cycles but this week I believe I have Dinos.
I noted an problem when my zoas showed this up skirts look :

After this I did 3 consecutive Water changes of 55g each in case there was something in the water, but there was no improvement and I noticed rocks were covered with a rusty brown color kind of film with a lot of bubbles, however it does not have the stringly slimy look as many Dinos photos I have seen. @dwest recommended to look in microscope. and I found this:
10x photo

100x photo

they move and seems that they like moving in kind of circles.

system water volume is 600g Bare Bottom, and I have two display tanks in same system that share the same sump.
alk 7.8, mag 1395, cal 400 NO3= 5, PO4= 0.05
I run skimmer, dose vodka since 3 months ago and have a 4 cube ATS installed

since 2 days ago I have done a couple of things:
1.- I added GAC in sump
2.- I reduced the dose of Carbon dosing from 200ml of vinegar equivalent to 180ml vinegar equivalent per day
3.- I have added two UV lamps of 36Watts each at the end of the biggest display tank ( tank is 10feet long)

In addition, I read an idea of @Velcro about using filters to filter dinos out and I tried the idea yesterday.

I installed a 10 micron filter cartridge and a sterilizing 0.22 micron cartridge at the end to filter water in tank for around 4 hours. I blowed rocks with powerhead to try make sure Dinos were in water column so they would get trapped in filter. I was afraid to run it more time because it will strip all particles from water column and I am not sure sps would handle that.

Questions:
1.- I need to confirm I have Dinos and What kind from the photo posted above?
2.- I need to know what to do next?

Thanks a lot

You have coolia. I think what keeps coolia thriving is several things. What i know is they prefer nitrogenous environments. Meaning higher nitrogen or nitrates. The other factor i believe that fuels it is higher ammonia sources. What created its dominance is either new tank or allowing po4 to drop and driving no3 up.

Several people here have battled coolia, including myself. Its a pain but not impossible to get rid of. Your main course of action is to get autotrophic algae like GHA to grow and then naturally allowing the tank to consume the nutrients. So, for now do the basics.

Increased nutrients to 0.10 po4 and 10 ppm no3

Run UV and GAC and maybe purigen.

Dont feed Coral, only fish.

Limit water changes to once every 3 weeks until GHA grows. Also look into added diversity like live rock.

Thats all thentime have for now, busy is an understatement for me lol ;Dead

 

[sensei]

You have coolia. I think what keeps coolia thriving is several things. What i know is they prefer nitrogenous environments. Meaning higher nitrogen or nitrates. The other factor i believe that fuels it is higher ammonia sources. What created its dominance is either new tank or allowing po4 to drop and driving no3 up.

Several people here have battled coolia, including myself. Its a pain but not impossible to get rid of. Your main course of action is to get autotrophic algae like GHA to grow and then naturally allowing the tank to consume the nutrients. So, for now do the basics.

Increased nutrients to 0.10 po4 and 10 ppm no3

Run UV and GAC and maybe purigen.

Dont feed Coral, only fish.

Limit water changes to once every 3 weeks until GHA grows. Also look into added diversity like live rock.

Thats all thentime have for now, busy is an understatement for me lol ;Dead

Thanks for your answer,
I forgot to mention that I do auto daily water change of 1.5%
I also have skimmer, ATS and do carbon dosing.

I started carbon dosing because 5 months ago my NO3 was around 30ppm and my acros were doing bad and now al least acros look good. I have around 30 fish in tank and 10 are tangs some of them are 12" big!
I am not sure if to raise nutrients I should just take out the ATS and keep the dose of carbon and see how nutrients balance out without ATS ?

please tell me what you think,
thanks again

 

[reeferfoxx]

Thanks for your answer,
I forgot to mention that I do auto daily water change of 1.5%
I also have skimmer, ATS and do carbon dosing.

I started carbon dosing because 5 months ago my NO3 was around 30ppm and my acros were doing bad and now al least acros look good. I have around 30 fish in tank and 10 are tangs some of them are 12" big!
I am not sure if to raise nutrients I should just take out the ATS and keep the dose of carbon and see how nutrients balance out without ATS ?

please tell me what you think,
thanks again

Im going to try not to be vague here. You have a unique situation in correlation to your dinos. High bioload and an organism that likes nitrates.

It could be possible your answer is in increased po4 only. Before we do that though, lets get some nitrate tests going.

If you can, stop dosing carbon and keep the ats going. Feed normally but lets test nitrates morning and night every other day for 7 days. Thats 4 days of testing in a 7 day period. That will give you accurate enough information on nitrate levels and how the tank handles it. Then we can go from there.

 

[reeferfoxx]

Oh and turn the auto water change off.

 

[reefsofty]

I don't know what percentage of folks had luck battling dinos with any of the methods in the old Dino thread but it's obviously a very low percentage, so I'd like refresh folks on the natural alternatives and lay out three areas of info:

• some of the factors that contribute to a dino outbreak
• how to avoid common dino outbreaks
• and what do if your tank is already having an outbreak

Let's get started!

Common Contributing Factors
Some of the most common factors that contribute to the dino outbreaks we cover in this thread are:

• the tank being new, rock being immature or the tank being otherwise highly disturbed, such as by other harsh tank treatments
• hard core nutrient reduction tools being used, such as
  • organic carbon dosing
  • excess "bio media"
  • algae filtration
  • nutrient adsorbing media like GFO

These four factors, or excess nutrient removal generally, play – usually in combination; rarely just one factor alone – pretty directly into dino's conversion to the blooming, phagotrophic, mat forming, toxin-producing side of their nature.

• Starvation Is Their Cue
  • Dino's seem to prefer life as autotrophic epiphytes on macro algae – chaeto morpha seems to be one of their favorite types to host in. (Maybe this fact can be useful to us; maybe sometimes chaeto ought not be used, or used with special consideration)
  • For several reasons, dino's seem to be terrible at nutrient uptake. This means they are more prone to starvation than many or most other microorganisms they have to compete with.....especially bacteria, which can scavenge free nutrients down to CRAZY low levels...low enough to starve out other microbes or algae.
  • With their protective mucus mats, potential to generate wicked toxins, and ability to survive not only by way of photosynthesis and dissolved nutrients, but alternately, when times get tough, by "eating their neighbors". (The least of their tricks.)
  • Dino's generally gain a competitive edge against their competitors AND their predators in a nutrient-starved environment. Keep reading!

How To Avoid Having A Dino Outbreak
In a nutshell, here's how to avoid dino outbreaks and begin to normalize your tank if you already have an outbreak:

• Phosphate Control
  • DO NOT let your phosphates hit or stay at zero.
  • See: Bacterivory in algae: A survival strategy during nutrient limitation
• Nitrate Control
  • Do not let your nitrates hit or stay at zero.
  • See: Putting the N in dinoflagellates
  • See: A Nitrate Dosing Calculator For Better Tank Health (And Better Coral Color!)
• Starvation conditions (zero or near-zero nitrate or phosphate levels) should be avoided.
  • Keep in mind that dissolved nutrients are not "waste products" to be eliminated
  • They are nutrients for the critters you care about like corals
  • The are also nutrients for a potential multitude of mostly-unknown/anonymous microbes that are needed to bring stability to a new tank.
  • Once excess nutrients have an impact, in fact, they usually can't be simply eliminated with media anyway – they've probably already had an impact on the tank's microbial cycle. (See blog link #3 at bottom.)
  • This all adds up to skipping almost all "extra" nutrient removing steps during the tank's initial development. This period seems to be especially critical, and longer in a tank started with dry, dead rock. Don't use anything until it's absolutely needed and other options have been fully exhausted...and be conservative with how you apply any nutrient removing tool.

What to do if you're tank is already having a dino outbreak
When attempting to control an organism like a dinoflagellate, confirming the ID will help, if possible:

• So to begin with, make sure you have Dinos – you should have multiple factors at work...these factors were mentioned in the first section above. The less these factors seem to describe your tank, the less likely any of this advice will be correct for your situation – so post questions!
  • no special equipment is needed to confirm whether your algae sample has dino's and/or other algae
  • Use @taricha's dino confirmation guide on posts #986-987.
• Once you have confirmed that you have dino's you should ideally figure out what type(s) your tank is hosting. (Multiple species blooms seem almost as common as single-strain blooms.)
  • A basic 1200x microscope will be useful and doesn't have to be fancier than a $15 toy scope. Even a $50 scope is a lot nicer, if you think you might be more serious about it.
  • See: Selecting a microscope for more discussion.

• Compare your dino's with photos where @taricha and @Beardo have already made ID's:
• (Click the link. Then click the SEARCH button at the bottom of the search page.)
  • ostreopsis
    • Consider focusing first on posts #86 and #905
  • prorocentrum
  • amphidinium
    • Amphidinium Dinoflagellate Treatment Methods (they are unique and somewhat more experimental)
  • coolia
  • (other searches coming)

• Extra Measures
  Generally, these tools will give extra control in terms of removing and/or killing cells in the water column....usually, along with other measures explained here, expediting the close of the dino bloom.
  • UV
    You can find discussions throughout the thread by using this search, with a great breakout of spec's on post #3770.
  • Diatom Filtration
    Effective, but not that popular. The more common units like the classic Vortex are somewhat difficult to use, and the newer units like the new Marineland Polishing Filter are relatively unknown. Still worthy of consideration.

So, after you get a measure of control, make sure you read What is the End Game?

Miscellaneous Goodies

• Post #2725 has a great diary of tank observations, test results and time-series graphs during the treatment for dino's from one of our members.
• Disturbances we cause in our tanks are what allow microbial/algal populations to shift and ugly/harmful blooms to happen.
  • See: Evidence for the Existence of Three Primary Strategies in Plants and Its Relevance to Ecological and Evolutionary Theory

• Take measures to assure that your feeding system is very consistent. An auto-feeder is an overlooked tool on most tanks. Look at Eheim's feeders...set them on low with high quality flake food. Just don't let them run your whole feeding program as flake isn't great food.

• Find out what inconsistencies you can eliminate with your husbandry to prevent more unneeded disturbances and the resulting microbial/algal changes. This could be changes to lighting or water chemistry – make them as consistent as you can.

• E.g. If you're adding new livestock all the time, stop it. If you have a color-tunable light fixture, stop re-tuning the colors. If you don't have an ATO keeping your salinity stable, get one. If you're still managing your dosing by hand, get an $80 4-head doser. Etc.

• If you provide the stability, then your dino's competitors will start competing with them and their predators will start eating them!!

• One thing that seems to help things progress is to stop scraping down the algae off your glass....once the dino's start giving up space that is. Mechanical removal is a legit short-term strategy and might help give competitors a leg up too.

2¢

Other interesting more-or-less related links on my blog:

1. The role of nutrients in decomposition of a thecate dinoflagellate
2. Effects of organic carbon, organic nitrogen, inorganic nutrients, and iron additions on the growth of phytoplankton and bacteria during a brown tide bloom
   
3. Response of heterotrophic bacteria, autotrophic picoplankton and heterotrophic nanoflagellates to re-oligotrophication

(Also cross-posted in the old Dino thread!)

this one article was the most helpful of all. I had a bad outbrake now its almost gone the item that helped most after identifying the creature was UV