Dinoflagellates – Are You Tired Of Battling Altogether?

enb141

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Boom!! ITS JUST AN ENDLESS FUTILE CURSE!!

Just when I thought things were better......I came home today and the brown which has been mainly diatoms, just had that more golden look to it. I took a sample to the scope and AHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!! DINO CURSE FROM HELL!!!! NOW ITS A FREAKING PARTY....I HAVE MY EXPECTED DIATOMS, A FEW OSTREOPSIS, AND NOW LARGE CELL AMPHIDINIUM HAS BECOME THE PREDOMINANT SPECIES!!!!! I JUST WANT TO SCREAM!!

My Temps are at 82.5 and have been 82.5-83.3 for close to 3-4 weeks! MY Nitrates are in the 8-10 range, phosphates are .1-.2, I'm siphoning through a 1 micron filter daily, I stopped the H2O2 at day 7....everything looked better and Bam now this garbage.

I just really don't get it and I think all of our theories and ideas are fundamentally flawed at some level. I have green algae, my nutrients in this system never bottom'd out....all I did was add a little extra sand and this scourge has ruined my carefully thought out and executed build.

In the old days, I threw the dang rocks in, corals and fish, no QT, no worries, just let things go and I never dealt with this insanity....and its not just that we're using dead rock. This system was started with real ocean live rock from KP and a mix of dead rock and still this scourge!

Something is fundamentally wrong....this has ruined and plagued the hobby....just look at these threads...they longer than War and Peace and Moby Dick put together!!!!!

I've tried every remedy on the internet....nothing works....things improve for a few days then your back to square one. I might as just get used brown sand in the evenings. Stir it up until its white, enjoy the tank for a few hours and repeat the next day. If I have folks come over I'll stir and make it look pretty....I have basically given up!!

Sorry for the rant but I know many of you are ranting right along with me. AHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!

Are you dosing reef roids/coral frenzy?

In my case using real sea salt water helped me, if you can get real sea salt water, could be worth to try it.
 

CDavmd

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Are you dosing reef roids/coral frenzy?

In my case using real sea salt water helped me, if you can get real sea salt water, could be worth to try it.
I had not thought of that but I added some reef roids and reef chili to my fishes food a couple times this week. Perhaps that led to the sudden increase in Dino's. What is interesting is that with the elevated temperatures the small cell Amphidinium which were predominating have disappeared. I'm still seeing occasional Ostreopsis but very few and far between. Large cell Amphidinium where were previously absent are now the major abundant Dino on my microscope exam. I have a good diatom bloom going and my silicates are only .14ppm- I'm going to keep dosing and pushing it up until I get close to @taricha recommended 1:1 ration with NO3-N

Time to get calm and methodical again!
 

Putrescine

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Have you startes getting any GHA? Im keeping my P04 at 0.10 and nitrates at 5 and algae is starti g to grow all over the rocks.

I had GHA badly when I first raised my levels in January, and that continued through march. I ended up using vibrant which ended up making a difference in the GHA after 6 weeks. It was all over the rocks, on the back wall, etc.

What time did you say this was taken?
Because of the 4 Ostreopsis cells, 3 of them we can see in profile and all 3 of those look like they are undergoing cell division.
I've only seen that in samples I took at night. Researchers found peak dividing time was shortly after onset of dark period.

Video was stamped at 7:46am Pacific time. Before my lights came on, but also almost 12 hours since the lights in the display tank went off. Rather disconcerting to see them in active cell division.
 

Miller535

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Are you dosing reef roids/coral frenzy?

In my case using real sea salt water helped me, if you can get real sea salt water, could be worth to try it.

As I said earlier in this thread, high temps make my dino's EXPLODE. I have large and small cell amphidinium. 3 times now in the last few weeks my tank temp has went up, and all 3 times the tank exploded with more dinos then i normally would get in a week. I now keep my tank at 76-77. Has not elimiated, but defintley helps.
 

drawman

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As I said earlier in this thread, high temps make my dino's EXPLODE. I have large and small cell amphidinium. 3 times now in the last few weeks my tank temp has went up, and all 3 times the tank exploded with more dinos then i normally would get in a week. I now keep my tank at 76-77. Has not elimiated, but defintley helps.
Thanks for the info. I think it's good to continue to try to hash this out with people reporting what dino species is impacted by certain temps
 

JKenny

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Hello everyone - I'm hoping for some help with an ID...

I've read almost half of the 460 pages of this thread and the information here is just incredibly helpful. I have an 8 month old mixed RS Reefer 250 bare-bottom tank that is mostly SPS and have recently found, what I now believe is, Dinos mostly on my back glass.

I have taken a picture with my old microscope but I was having a really tough time getting good focus when taking pictures with my phone. I notice almost no cell movement under the scope, and, I think what I'm seeing might be Coolia or Prorocentrum - but what do I know!

I have had a Pentair 15w UV running 24/7 for the past few months because my tank is in a room almost surrounded by windows and I wanted to stay ahead of algae. Also, I just finished a Bryopsis & GHA purge using Reef Flux and Vibrant about 2 weeks ago and noticed a red patch mid-tank on the bottom glass just where the return would flow down. In looking more carefully I now notice that it's all over my blacked-out back glass. The picture is from a Q-Tip swab of the back glass.

I did have the PO4 bottom out about a month ago but have since had my Nitrates up around 10+ and the phosphate been reading between .02 and .05 depending on whether I check in the AM or PM.

I'd be grateful to anyone that can help me ID which type of Dino I might be dealing with...

Joe

IMG_2707.jpg
 

Miller535

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Thanks for the info. I think it's good to continue to try to hash this out with people reporting what dino species is impacted by certain temps

Right. Each type is so different, it is important to list what type of dinos when listing experience with it.
 

ScottB

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I posted originally my long Dino post #9017 on May 9. I have been dealing with primarily Large Cell Amphidinum and a smaller amount of Ostreopsis at this point. May 7 was the start of my tank increase to 82.2F, and this post will update my battle up to today.

I have all frags at this point for coral, none are larger that the frag plug that that originally came on. Four of them are SPS, Four are LPS, and the rest are Zoas, Ricordea, and Shrooms (which are the only ones doing just fine).

Tank started October 5, 2019 - Red Sea Reefer 525XL - 139 Gal total volume.
All Dry Rock. Sandless (pulled sandbed back in January 2020 when I had a large outbreak of Prorocentrum).
Neptune Trident to monitor Alk, Ca, Mg (7.6-8, 425-435, 1300-1320 respectively)
Using 55W Jebao UV Sterilizer Piped Directly into the Display since January 2020

Last Water Change 25% was on April 26 - Red Sea Blue
Nitrates 20-25 through this period - Salifert No dosing required
Phosphates 0.16-0.21 - Hanna ULR No dosing required

May 7 - Tank Increased slowly from 79F to 82.2F over 24 hours. NoPox slowly weaned off - was running at 1/4 of the recommended dose for a mixed reef through a Neptune DOS pump.
May 8 - Order of 20 Frags of SPS, LPS, Zoas as a tester to see how my 7 month old tank does.
May 9 - Make post, only seeing scant 2-4 Large Cell Amphidinum and no browning of the rocks. Start Dosing Reef Roids to SPS, Reef Energy A and B again (1/4 of the measured dose for my tank).
May 10 - Started Adding Microbacter 7 again, Turning off UV and Skimmer for 4 hours like the instructions say. Last dose of Vibrant 1ml/10gal dose goes in.

May 11 - 15 - Reef Roids every other day, reef energy A + B every other day.

May 16 - Look at the microscope again and see 1-2 Ostreopsis and 1-2 Large Cell Amphidinum in five low power 80X fields. I drop my temp back to 79 over 24 hours having done nine days of the 82.2F temp.

May 20 - My 800W Finnex heater takes a dump, and I put a 200W in its place for now since the weather is hotter. Start seeing increased Ostreopsis and Amphidinum from random glass samples and samples from where I see bubbles on the rocks from the end of the day.

I start taking a toothbrush to all the rock surfaces to rub off any type of algae covering twice a day and the rocks look great. Change out the filter floss each day.

May 22 - 9 Gallon (7 percent) mini water change.

May 23 - In the early AM before the lights come on, but the ambient light in the room lights the tank, theres about a total of the surface area of a quarter of brown sprinkled on the rock on the bottom 2-3" of the tank. I test this and see a combination of Ostreopsis and Amphidinum once again. This area is not evident at night at all which screams DINOS to me.

May 23-24 - I again heat my water up over 24 hours up to 83F this time. Stop scrubbing the rocks. Place Filter Floss in high flow areas, squeeze it out and look at it under the microscope again to see living Large Cell Amphidinum and Ostreopsis.

May 25 - Changed out my activated carbon for a fresh batch.

May 26 - No visible evidence of Dinos on the rocks. Microscope shows living Ostreopsis and Amphidinum in similar low concentrations 1-2 cells per low power field.

So now im at:
Temp 83F, which I plan on continuing for the foreseeable future.
Nitrate 25 (no dosing)
Phosphate 0.2 (no dosing)
Ammonia 0
Nitrite 0
Alk 7.6-7.74 (4ml/day of dosing)
Ca 430-435 (no dosing)
Mg 1300-1305 (no dosing)
No Reef Energy A + B since May 15
No Reef Roids since May 15
No more toothbrushing or blowing rocks since May 22
Last water Change 7% was May 22, with no plans to do it soon.
Using Filter Floss Daily in high flow areas until I see minimal to no dinos when squeezing out and washing the floss.
Lights are 9am-6pm with ramp-up. AI Hydra 26's and 52's on an AB+ program with no Red/Green light.
Dosing Algae Barn Oceanmagik Phyto daily, and Microbacter 7.

These are the boys I saw this morning from my squeeze out and rinse of my floss near my powerheads on 800X magnification.



Dude, you could teach a class in how to manage dinoflagellates. You have certainly been paying attention. Sorry for all the small relapses. Amphids are the most difficult to solve for. Not sure why the ostreos keep popping up.
 

ScottB

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Hello everyone - I'm hoping for some help with an ID...

I've read almost half of the 460 pages of this thread and the information here is just incredibly helpful. I have an 8 month old mixed RS Reefer 250 bare-bottom tank that is mostly SPS and have recently found, what I now believe is, Dinos mostly on my back glass.

I have taken a picture with my old microscope but I was having a really tough time getting good focus when taking pictures with my phone. I notice almost no cell movement under the scope, and, I think what I'm seeing might be Coolia or Prorocentrum - but what do I know!

I have had a Pentair 15w UV running 24/7 for the past few months because my tank is in a room almost surrounded by windows and I wanted to stay ahead of algae. Also, I just finished a Bryopsis & GHA purge using Reef Flux and Vibrant about 2 weeks ago and noticed a red patch mid-tank on the bottom glass just where the return would flow down. In looking more carefully I now notice that it's all over my blacked-out back glass. The picture is from a Q-Tip swab of the back glass.

I did have the PO4 bottom out about a month ago but have since had my Nitrates up around 10+ and the phosphate been reading between .02 and .05 depending on whether I check in the AM or PM.

I'd be grateful to anyone that can help me ID which type of Dino I might be dealing with...

Joe

IMG_2707.jpg
I think you may have dodged a bullet on dinos. Anybody see dinos in this pic?

These look like something different. More like chrysophytes.
And I don't have an answer to your next question "how do I treat them?"

I have not personally had to deal with them. The advice I have read seems to be all over the place, but that was a while ago. Perhaps a newer consensus has emerged.
 

CDavmd

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....so I have been thinking about something. One aspect of treatment has been the addition of bacteria and increasing microbe diversity. Various Bacteria are being used and combined. I have been doing this as well but I am becoming concerned that certain products might be making our situation worse.

I was recently treating the tank at night with H202 and adding bacteria in the morning to replace what might have been killed by the H202. I was also closely monitoring my Nitrate and Phosphate, checking daily.

I found that certain products will significantly drop the level of Nitrate and phosphate and at times bottom them out. I found this to be most profound with MB7 and Dr. Tims waste away. Refresh and MB Clean will also lower them, but not as drastically. I did not see this effect with Dr. Tims Ecobalance or as expected with products like FrtizTubro, One and only, Biospira, etc.

Just for completeness, Vibrant also dramatically drops NO3 and Phosphate but this is expected as it contains a certain amount of acetic acid (carbon source).

So is it a mistake to be adding some of these when what we are trying to do is maintain elevated/normal NO3 and Phosphate to promote growth of algal species?
 

drawman

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....so I have been thinking about something. One aspect of treatment has been the addition of bacteria and increasing microbe diversity. Various Bacteria are being used and combined. I have been doing this as well but I am becoming concerned that certain products might be making our situation worse.

I was recently treating the tank at night with H202 and adding bacteria in the morning to replace what might have been killed by the H202. I was also closely monitoring my Nitrate and Phosphate, checking daily.

I found that certain products will significantly drop the level of Nitrate and phosphate and at times bottom them out. I found this to be most profound with MB7 and Dr. Tims waste away. Refresh and MB Clean will also lower them, but not as drastically. I did not see this effect with Dr. Tims Ecobalance or as expected with products like FrtizTubro, One and only, Biospira, etc.

Just for completeness, Vibrant also dramatically drops NO3 and Phosphate but this is expected as it contains a certain amount of acetic acid (carbon source).

So is it a mistake to be adding some of these when what we are trying to do is maintain elevated/normal NO3 and Phosphate to promote growth of algal species?
You may be better off adding live rock or live sand. I know @AquaBiomics posted a thread where he measured bacterial diversity in tanks after adding live sand from Florida. I did the same and added a small amount of live sand to a container in my sump.
 

CDavmd

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You may be better off adding live rock or live sand. I know @AquaBiomics posted a thread where he measured bacterial diversity in tanks after adding live sand from Florida. I did the same and added a small amount of live sand to a container in my sump.
Yep...probably best but then you risk adding potential fish pathogens that you have been careful about by strictly quarantining all your fish additions. I guess there is always a potential downside.
 

drawman

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Yep...probably best but then you risk adding potential fish pathogens that you have been careful about by strictly quarantining all your fish additions. I guess there is always a potential downside.
It's true. Easy fix is putting it in a bucket of saltwater with a powerhead for 80 days then you have the best of both worlds.
 

ScottB

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ScottB, You're a gentleman... Thank you. I'll begin my quest to learn more about chrysophytes.
You are welcome Joe.

Ya know, at 8 months of tank maturity, this could just be another "uglies" phase in the biome that just needs to run its course. Unless it is attacking or attaching to corals, just keeping good levels of the basics (temp, salinity, ALK, NO3, PO4 is my standard run) and allowing the tank to resettle is not a bad path.
 

taricha

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I had not thought of that but I added some reef roids and reef chili to my fishes food a couple times this week. Perhaps that led to the sudden increase in Dino's. What is interesting is that with the elevated temperatures the small cell Amphidinium which were predominating have disappeared. I'm still seeing occasional Ostreopsis but very few and far between. Large cell Amphidinium where were previously absent are now the major abundant Dino on my microscope exam.
I think Reef roids and reef chili is a bad move with dinos. This is the sort of high nutrient, small particulate food that Dinos seem to really take advantage of. They don't seem so good at inorganic forms of P and N (PO4, NO3).
Anybody see dinos in this pic?
focus isn't clear, video might show small cell amphidinium movement, or similar, but like you say, it seems unlikely to be dionos.
So is it a mistake to be adding some of these when what we are trying to do is maintain elevated/normal NO3 and Phosphate to promote growth of algal species?
This is a really good question, and it's very hard to know what's actually changing when we add a bottled bacterial product. Their mechanism of action is often mysterious, and their reported effects are rarely consistent.
A lot of times, people don't even agree on what they are supposed to do. Much less if they actually do it, and if that effect is desirable in context of all the other modifications we're making.


Speaking of, the most common things I see people doing while battling dinos that I don't recommend. Not trying to be declaratory about what people should and shouldn't do - these just fall in the category of - I have seen a lot of people do this and it's not clear it helps at all long-term.
Not recommended.
  • Phyto and pods
  • elevating PO4 with fish/coral foods
  • peroxide
  • long blackouts (>48hrs)
The first two may make things worse, the last two just seem to slow the process, from what I've seen
 

CDavmd

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Speaking of, the most common things I see people doing while battling dinos that I don't recommend. Not trying to be declaratory about what people should and shouldn't do - these just fall in the category of - I have seen a lot of people do this and it's not clear it helps at all long-term.
Not recommended.
  • Phyto and pods
  • elevating PO4 with fish/coral foods
  • peroxide
  • long blackouts (>48hrs)
The first two may make things worse, the last two just seem to slow the process, from what I've seen
interesting....why would Pods worsen things...in the past I thought our thinking was that pods would consume some of the less toxic Dino’s like Amphidinium . Weren’t we once putting mats of chaeto on Dino areas and thinking apart from allelopathy that it attracted pods to the area?
 

taricha

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interesting....why would Pods worsen things...in the past I thought our thinking was that pods would consume some of the less toxic Dino’s like Amphidinium . Weren’t we once putting mats of chaeto on Dino areas and thinking apart from allelopathy that it attracted pods to the area?
lemme clarify, Toxic dinos: no pods.
non-toxic dinos, amphipods and isopods may be helpful - copepods and phyto almost certainly won't. because our phyto we buy is like 5 microns, so it grows copepods that specialize in eating things that size and are not equipped vs our 50 micron problem dinos.

I am still unsure why blobs of chaeto on top of amphidinium dinos worked for me and for a few others. Maybe a home to amphipods, increasing grazing pressure, maybe the chaeto blob changed the local nutrients or pushed the night time oxygen lower than the dinos wanted. No good answers here.
 

Miller535

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lemme clarify, Toxic dinos: no pods.
non-toxic dinos, amphipods and isopods may be helpful - copepods and phyto almost certainly won't. because our phyto we buy is like 5 microns, so it grows copepods that specialize in eating things that size and are not equipped vs our 50 micron problem dinos.

I am still unsure why blobs of chaeto on top of amphidinium dinos worked for me and for a few others. Maybe a home to amphipods, increasing grazing pressure, maybe the chaeto blob changed the local nutrients or pushed the night time oxygen lower than the dinos wanted. No good answers here.

I tried pods and phyto and thought the phyto made it worse. Just my opinion.
 

CDavmd

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lemme clarify, Toxic dinos: no pods.
non-toxic dinos, amphipods and isopods may be helpful - copepods and phyto almost certainly won't. because our phyto we buy is like 5 microns, so it grows copepods that specialize in eating things that size and are not equipped vs our 50 micron problem dinos.

I am still unsure why blobs of chaeto on top of amphidinium dinos worked for me and for a few others. Maybe a home to amphipods, increasing grazing pressure, maybe the chaeto blob changed the local nutrients or pushed the night time oxygen lower than the dinos wanted. No good answers here.
gotcha! Thats helpful! Thanks
 
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