Dinoflagellates – Are You Tired Of Battling Altogether?

Mrtakeoff53

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Today is the second day in a row my display has no signs of dinos. Unfortunatly I never got an id of the kind I have, but what seemed to have worked for me this far:
° UV looped in the display.
° Dosing beneficial bacteria, I used both microbacter7 and special blend.
° Stopped doing waterchanges.
° Manual removal by siphoning all visible dinos through a 20 micron filterroll.
° Dose phytoplankton and letting algae grow out of control.
° Increase no3 and po4 mainly by fewer lighting hours in fuge and feeding one more time per day, and again, no water changes.
° Running GAC in a reactor, this might have not affected the spread, but if it is toxic it hopefully made it easier on the livestock.

I wont call it a victory before I have no dinos show up for a couple of weeks atleast. But my steps above have definately worked to heavily knock back the dinos. I still have some strands in my Chaeto and sump, I dont know how to get it out of my Chaeto right now, looking for advice on that!

Alot of nasty slime and gunk was siphoned through this 20 micron filterroll, the water that I poured back was crystalclear and no signs of dinos regrouping all over after.
IMG_20200609_195915.jpg

IMG_20200609_195746.jpg
How many days/weeks did you syphon through the roll? I’ve done the above steps the last few days (still at the beginning of my fight) except I’m struggling with how to manually remove them. Your idea seems like a good idea. Just wondering for how long you had to do this.
 

Chrille26

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How many days/weeks did you syphon through the roll? I’ve done the above steps the last few days (still at the beginning of my fight) except I’m struggling with how to manually remove them. Your idea seems like a good idea. Just wondering for how long you had to do this.

I have done it twice, once per week since I bought the rolls and I am planning to do it a third time today so it is ongoing, but it makes a real dent each time!
 

Mrtakeoff53

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I have done it twice, once per week since I bought the rolls and I am planning to do it a third time today so it is ongoing, but it makes a real dent each time!
Thanks! I started sucking them up through a hose daily (mine are on a frag rack and it’s hard to keep clean). I filter them through a regular filter sock and then pump the water back into the tank through my UV sterilizer to kill any that went through the filter sock. It’s making a huge difference 2 days in. I appreciate the info!

For everyone else, I finally tested my NO3 and PO4. NO3 was 5 and PO4 was 0.14! This was after I started feeding more while my UV and PO4 tester was on order. I raised NO3 to 15 to balance with the PO4 and my tank has never been dirtier. However, I’ve never been more happy to see green algae on my glass rather than that stringy brown snot! Haha!

If you want another option for NO3 and PO4 increases, look at this product below (I am not affiliated with them in any way).It’s CRAZY cheap and lasts FOREVER! I use 1g of PO4 to make 500mL of liquid and it increases my 70 gal tank by .02 ppm. It’ll last a lifetime and I have seen no negative effects on any corals (high end SPS all the way down to green button polyps).

I hope we all beat these little *******!

Let the battle continue...
 

chinw76

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Can someone please id the dinos that I have. They are on the sand, gyres and have a light brown on some rock. P04 is at .038 and nitrate at 5 ppm. What I tried is take a new slide for my scope, added 2 drops of dino and 1 drop of 3% peroxide and they all stopped moving.
dino.jpg
dino2.jpg
 

vtecintegra

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So here are mine. New tank, PO4 and NO3 had bottomed. I'm calling it large cell amphidinium. Can I get a confirm?
Dinos Zoomed.png


Covering sand and rocks.
UV has had no effect.
No snail, shrimp, fish deaths.
Snails and tang eat them.
Like light, don’t like shade.
Looks like a hook on one end.
Do not go away at night.
Run around like bumper cars.
 

ScottB

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So here are mine. New tank, PO4 and NO3 had bottomed. I'm calling it large cell amphidinium. Can I get a confirm?
Dinos Zoomed.png


Covering sand and rocks.
UV has had no effect.
No snail, shrimp, fish deaths.
Snails and tang eat them.
Like light, don’t like shade.
Looks like a hook on one end.
Do not go away at night.
Run around like bumper cars.

Large cell amphidinium, sadly. Kinda tough to shake these, but on the bright side, they are not toxic. There is a separate thread going on this species as their treatments are still fairly experimental IMO. On a new system, I'd be very tempted to just let it ride. Certainly don't waste money on a UV as the fellas don't enter the water at night. The most common methods include:
Dosing back NO3 and PO4
Adding sponge excel to feed diatoms which might overtake them.
Adding pods that (sometimes) eat amphids.
 

ScottB

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Can someone please id the dinos that I have. They are on the sand, gyres and have a light brown on some rock. P04 is at .038 and nitrate at 5 ppm. What I tried is take a new slide for my scope, added 2 drops of dino and 1 drop of 3% peroxide and they all stopped moving.
dino.jpg
dino2.jpg
While they look like dinos, I cannot make out the species with this magnification. Can you get 400X?

When they were moving, can you describe their movement? Did they seem to be "tethered" from a pointy end and random float around that anchor point? (Ostreopsis) Or did the move more like bumper cars? (Amphidinium)
 

vtecintegra

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Large cell amphidinium, sadly. Kinda tough to shake these, but on the bright side, they are not toxic. There is a separate thread going on this species as their treatments are still fairly experimental IMO. On a new system, I'd be very tempted to just let it ride. Certainly don't waste money on a UV as the fellas don't enter the water at night. The most common methods include:
Dosing back NO3 and PO4
Adding sponge excel to feed diatoms which might overtake them.
Adding pods that (sometimes) eat amphids.
Thanks for the reply. I've read all 59 pages of the amphidium thread and I'm on 322 of 465 of this one. I'm dosing, silicate ordered, but last night I had to pull the sand. The water that came with it was so nasty you couldn't see the bottom of a 5 gallon bucket. Stunk also. Starting to see a hint of green algae.
 

ScottB

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Thanks for the reply. I've read all 59 pages of the amphidium thread and I'm on 322 of 465 of this one. I'm dosing, silicate ordered, but last night I had to pull the sand. The water that came with it was so nasty you couldn't see the bottom of a 5 gallon bucket. Stunk also. Starting to see a hint of green algae.
I am always for exhaustive research. In the absence of scientific data on methods, ya just have to try to piece together the anecdotes into trends that MIGHT match your biome just enough to work. And yeah, pulling the sand was a common hail Mary that worked for many.

Interesting that your (newish) sand was that gunked up. But then I remember how ostreopsis would gunk up two 4" X 12" filter pads in a single day. Oh that smell too. I can smell ostreopsis from two towns away now.
 

IvanW

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I have not read all the multiple posts since I originally had this problem, I just recently read an article by Jake Adams about raising temperature to get rid of Dinoflagellates. I have no idea if this has been discussed earlier.
 

ScottB

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I have not read all the multiple posts since I originally had this problem, I just recently read an article by Jake Adams about raising temperature to get rid of Dinoflagellates. I have no idea if this has been discussed earlier.
It has been discussed a fair amount. Still have to call it "inconclusive" though as everyone is also doing other stuff: dosing, UV, manual removal etc. Even still, raising temps worked for some and not for others.
 

Ioncewaslegend

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I'm a former lab rat who is currently dealing with a case of dinoflagellates. Seeing the threads here have been very helpful, but oftentimes the data is incomplete. With that in mind, I'm interested in

1. Putting together a curated group of 'case studies' that include (among other things) positive ID of dinos, dino subtype, treatment methods, etc, and

2. Using this data set to try and do some meta-analyses and see what treatment(s) statistically significantly help treat/hold dino outbreaks at bay.

I'll be combing these threads and archives for additional data, but - if you're willing - I'd greatly appreciate any data you'd be willing to contribute by filling out this form. Thanks all! https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1...wsDqNWvYGOGBIU-zAsVdzaXQ/viewform?usp=sf_link
 

taricha

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I'm a former lab rat who is currently dealing with a case of dinoflagellates. Seeing the threads here have been very helpful, but oftentimes the data is incomplete. With that in mind, I'm interested in

1. Putting together a curated group of 'case studies' that include (among other things) positive ID of dinos, dino subtype, treatment methods, etc, and

2. Using this data set to try and do some meta-analyses and see what treatment(s) statistically significantly help treat/hold dino outbreaks at bay.

I'll be combing these threads and archives for additional data, but - if you're willing - I'd greatly appreciate any data you'd be willing to contribute by filling out this form. Thanks all! https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1...wsDqNWvYGOGBIU-zAsVdzaXQ/viewform?usp=sf_link
Awesome!
Check your PM. I'm sending you a survey-type thing I did. Feel free to adapt it, use parts or the whole thing or whatever.
Thanks for being willing to do the data legwork on this.
 

Ioncewaslegend

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Awesome!
Check your PM. I'm sending you a survey-type thing I did. Feel free to adapt it, use parts or the whole thing or whatever.
Thanks for being willing to do the data legwork on this.

Not a problem, and thank you for that data!

Honestly, I enjoy this kind of thing. I miss working in a lab and data analysis, and - if things like bryopsis have taught the hobby anything - it's that no pest is unbeatable: you just have to find the right approach.
 

ScottB

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Not a problem, and thank you for that data!

Honestly, I enjoy this kind of thing. I miss working in a lab and data analysis, and - if things like bryopsis have taught the hobby anything - it's that no pest is unbeatable: you just have to find the right approach.
I sent in my ostreopsis data to this form.

Thanks for digging into this. I have a good anecdotal feel for dinos by now (except for amphidinium) , but a data driven approach is ideal.
 

skyhawkn5262y

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Hello darkness my old friend.... Sadly, after completely eliminating Ostreopsis for several months, I have another Dino outbreak. This time I think it's Prorocentrum, but I'm not entirely sure because I can't really make out the indentation on any of them. Can I get an ID, please?

20200624_180821.jpg
 

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Ioncewaslegend

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Hello darkness my old friend.... Sadly, after completely eliminating Ostreopsis for several months, I have another Dino outbreak. This time I think it's Prorocentrum, but I'm not entirely sure because I can't really make out the indentation on any of them. Can I get an ID, please?

20200624_180821.jpg

The video and the picture are a little unclear, but I'd say that's a reasonable guess. Here's a picture of my prorocentrum outbreak from last week for comparison:

IMG_20200618_150256.jpg


The good news is that I'm reasonably certain I've eliminated them (three days with lights on, no gunk, and I saw *one* dead dino after hunting around a microscope slide for five minutes earlier today).

My plan of attack (copy pasted from my tank journal on another site):

First step (aside from asking for input here): figure out exactly what I'm dealing with. 'Dinoflagellates' is an imprecise term that refers to a number of different species, each of which has unique characteristics. I found a nifty little PDF to help identify what type of dinos you may run into, and I've attached it here. (Note: I also have a microscope available to loan to the club; check out my thread on that if you want to borrow it.)

I initially thought I had amphidinium dinos. After more thorough analysis, I'm more convinced that I have Prorocentrum dinos. While this sucks, because they can be a toxic species, it *does* mean they go into the water column at night—meaning a UV sterilizer should have an effect.

Second step: nutrients. Thanks to fighting what I thought was a cyano bloom, I was aware that my phosphates and nitrates had been undetectable for some time. I've been feeding heavier for the past few days to counteract this and, while I've seen an uptick in phosphates (0.07 ppm as of my last measurement), my nitrates haven't budged. Given this, I've opted to dose nitrates until they reach a detectable level (and to dose to maintain them). Consensus seems to be that no phosphate or nitrate predisposes tanks to a dino bloom; my money on the 'why' is that dinos are more effective at out-competing other organisms with limiting nutrients.

Third step: competition. I started with dry rock, bagged live sand, and bottle bacteria. I've added frags from other people's tanks, but I'm willing to bet that my biodiversity is still woefully inadequate. Dinos are a monoculture, and they've outcompeted everything else, so my goal is to knock them back while giving other things a chance to scavenge for nutrients before the little jerks can get to them.

Fourth step: UV sterilizer. Hello, old friend; I've missed you from cell culture experiments in the lab. Since I ID'd my dinos as entering the water column, a UV sterilizer sounds like an excellent tool to help kill these (and other parasites) off.

Fifth step: 3-day blackout. Prorocentrum seem to enter the water column only after a blackout. Bacterial competitors don't need to photosynthesize. Bye-bye pretty reef tank for a few days.

Sixth step: activated carbon. Dinos often have toxins. The point of all this is to kill the dinos. Dying things release toxins. Toxins kill non-dino things. I do not wish non-dino things to be killed, so I am running more carbon.

Seventh step: manual removal. There was brown crap all over the sand, and some (what I think might *actually* be cyano) on the rocks. I blew off all the rocks with a turkey baster, siphoned all the brown gunk I could off the sand, and just removed as much as I could from the tank to make the rest of the steps more effective.

Additionally, when I added the bacteria, I mixed it up with some tank water, then used a turkey baster to spray it on/inject it into the sand. I figured that both kicked additional dinos into the water column, and seeded the sand with more beneficial bacteria.

Outbreak was identified last Thursday. It appears gone today.

Good luck! Ping me if you have questions. :)
 

taricha

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Can I get an ID, please?
Hard to be definitive, but may be prorocentrum likely.

@Ioncewaslegend Nicely done. That's a really good approach, and wouldn't be a bad model for anyone to emulate with prorocentrum. What did you use for your bacteria addition?
 

Ioncewaslegend

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Hard to be definitive, but may be prorocentrum likely.

@Ioncewaslegend Nicely done. That's a really good approach, and wouldn't be a bad model for anyone to emulate with prorocentrum. What did you use for your bacteria addition?

I used Microbacter 7. For my tank (20 gal IM Nuvo 20), I used roughly one capful, mixed it with 3-4 turkey basters of tank water, let it sit for a few minutes, then did the spraying/sand injections.
 

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giphy.gif


AD61125D-4E30-4C05-A2C7-FEF119C9F878_1_201_a.jpeg


Can someone help with identification and a question? There is a small brown dusting in the sand, but today when cleaning the chaeto, I found part of it covered with the brown goop and air bubbles. I took a sample of it and put it under the microscope. I have to say that these guys where not the majority of the organisms, there was a pletora of pods, nematods among others. The question I have is besides increasing PO4 (currently 0.02) and NO3 (currently at 5ppm). How do I increase biodiversity in the system [which bact in a bottle, live rock (started with dry rocks), fiji mud, more amphipods]?

Jose
 
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