Dinoflagellates – Are You Tired Of Battling Altogether?

[chvvkumar]

Wow that is cool. Green and all lined up. I don't see green diatoms very much. Are they stealing chloroplasts?

Not sure but I did find a book called "Identifying Marine Diatoms and Dinoflagellates" by Grethe R. Hasle. I will try to see if that book has any mention of these diatom types:

amazon.com/Identifying-Marine-Diatoms-Dinoflagellates-Grethe/dp/0126930155

 

[Cory]

Dinos have solid defenses. It is more about having competitors cover their preferred surfaces. UV kills them -- if you can get them swimming into the UV.

What species do you have? I can smell ostreopsis from two counties over.
Yes, carbon will help.

I haven't I'd it yet but its on the rocks and bb. Brown stringy with bubbles. Stinks. I should get a uv.

 

[SMSREEF]

Wow that is cool. Green and all lined up. I don't see green diatoms very much. Are they stealing chloroplasts?

What’s really cool is that they are not green when wet. But when dry they get green and look to be fatter... maybe they are stealing chlorophyll...

 

[ScottB]

I haven't I'd it yet but its on the rocks and bb. Brown stringy with bubbles. Stinks. I should get a uv.

Unless they are amphidinium, a properly sized UV will knock them back. 1 watt per 3 gallons. Very slow flow for maximum contact time. You can encourage them into the water column with a 48 hour blackout.

If they are amphidinium, then UV is a waste of time/money.

 

[Flatlandreefer]

Added a new tank to an existing system. Probably rushed things a little too much and now I have dinos that I have been dealing with. Upped feedings and bioload but still having trouble keeping phos detectable so I have neophos on order. I have been dosing vibrant to the tank and sucking out all the dinos every night. I have been making progress, although I have lost a few acros that had dinos growing on the coral. I am now in the middle of a fairly bad bacteria bloom. I'm not sure what to attribute the bacteria bloom to and how long it will last?

 

[Butcher333]

Here is my Dinos theory for why dinoflagellates are more difficult now:

So last night, I decided to look up what several old school reefing books and blogs said about dealing with Dinos. Almost all initially say its a fairly rare thing, and shouldn't really pop up. Then they go on to say that if you do get them that you should limit your nutrient intake, the same way they'd recommend dealing with most other algae issues. Below is a compilation of the different suggestions commonly used in the "old school methods" by the greats such as Bob Fenner, Anthony Calfo, RHF, Leonard Ho, SonnyX, etc.

https://reefs.com/2011/03/16/how-i-beat-dinoflagellates-and-the-lessons-i-learned/
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-11/rhf/index.php#11
http://reefsite.com/2015/01/dinoflagellates-and-the-treament-of/

These 7 are almost always recommended:

1. Run granular activated carbon (GAC) to remove as much of these toxins as possible
2. 3 day black-out. Make sure to aggressively run your protein skimmer (or use air pumps) during this time as oxygen levels can get dangerously low.
3. Several large water changes
4. Manually removal: Siphoning off any dinoflagellates you can find, in addition to siphoning the sand bed. A 10 micron filter sock can be installed in the sump to catch fine particulates if not doing a water change.
5. Reduce photo period and/or intensity & run only blues or actinics.
6. Feed conservatively to keep nutrient levels low.
7. Use Kalkwasser for supplementation, ideally maintain pH above 8.4 with kalkwasser.

These bottom 3 are recommended on most publications after 2010, but in early 2000's I don't see these mentioned:

1. For two weeks after the second water change, I added hydrogen peroxide (3% h202 solution commonly sold in supermarkets) at a rate of 1ml per 10 gallon per day, ozone or UV sterilizers would serve the same purpose.
2. Dose DIY Zeo Coral Snow daily (Calcium Carbonate https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/diy-kz-coral-snow-with-97purity.211722/ ) This is a flocculent to help bind and remove the free floating Dino’s. - Turkey bast the rocks and sand to get as many dinos free floating as possible so they get bound to the Calcium Carbonate slurry. Turkey Baster combined with the blackout was key to getting the dinos free floating so they could bind to the "Coral Snow".
3. Add good bacteria (MB7, Dr Tims, Seachem Stability, etc)

I find this to be obviously mostly different from the treatment methods that are primarily suggested now. Which is primarily keep PO4 and NO3 elevated above zero, ideally through dosing (feeding is ok sometimes too) to keep PO4 0.5-0.2ppm~ and NO3 2-20ppm~. This is the main recommendation from what I can see. This in addition to adding good bacteria for bio diversity, maybe run a UV, maybe do a blackout, run carbon, etc.

The main difference is how nutrients are handled:
Old school tank set up: Go slow! Established live rock, live sand, slowly add fish, slowly add corals (NO SPS until after year 1). Filtration was 1-2lbs+ of live rock per gallon (even if mostly in the sump), and a skimmer, carbon, simple set ups.

New school tank set up: dry dead rock, dry or live sand, add bacteria and pure ammonia, fish added quickly, any corals added quickly, skimmer, filter roller and/or socks, GFO, Carbon, tons of bio media (matrix, bricks, etc), refugiums/ATS/Chaeto Reactors, Supplements, etc from the start.

The main thing I’m noticing is that not only are new tanks not starting with established live rock, they are also usually running all of the equipment you would want to add into your system later on when nutrient levels begin to rise above levels that you find easy to manage naturally.

Live rock might of reached “full saturation” of phosphate, while new/dry rock and bio media still hasn’t reached saturation yet.


TL; DR:
My main theory is that because dry rock & sand hasn't reached full phosphate saturation, that is (COULD be) the problem we have with dinos. It may be worthwhile to load up the new rocks with phosphate during the cycle to prevent this from happening. Old tanks used to be much more stable and bacteria, coralline algae, and diversity is usually what is talked about. That makes sense, and they are obvious things to think about, however I think MAYBE phosphate saturation of the rocks and sand should probably be part of this conversation.

I haven't really tested this theory, but to me it seems to be one of the main missing factors in this dinos equation.

I’ve noticed this exact(or close) thing. Just finished new build. Didn’t want the baddies I had before even though I’ll probably get them anyways. Started with dry rock. Live rock before. Instead of adding big skimmer later on and refugium later on like before I wanted to start off on top of things. When cycle was completed, and after I figured out my skimmer overflowing issue. After a little over a week maybe 2 I noticed dinoflagellates. It started to choke out the GHA that was on my sand bed and doing the same thing to my macros in my sump which had been doing great. After a lot of reading here I came to an understanding that I needed to kill my skimmer and feed a little heavier. My ph had been 7.9-8 Now 7.8-7.9. I noticed the next day that the dinoflagellate seemed to be a little ragged looking. More clumpy. Over the last week or so it has almost completely gone from my display and despite being really heavy in my fuge, looks sickly and like it might be disappearing slowly. Because my PH is so low, I was researching that and ran across an article about Dino’s and was shocked to read what seemed contradictory to what I’d read here. They were actually able to increase Dino’s by raising PH in one part of the study. It was concluded that the Dino’s were not responsible for the increased PH but proliferated because of it. Usually followed a diatom bloom. The diatoms would create the conditions which favored Dino’s.

https://www.int-res.com/articles/meps/86/m086p181.pdf

I think it’s also likely that things that would normally eat Dino that we would normally get on our live rock is a possible issue. I’m not just talking about Pods.

 

[Backreefing]

I haven’t searched this whole thread , but I’m battling Dino’s now and it’s on glass and rocks . Oddly it’s leaving the gravel alone .
But my weird problem is the Dino’s are on bubbles on the surface , I never seen this before. I got 2 power heads and 2 spray bars aimed at the surface , but this scum persists. I started doseing sodium nitrate it helps but anyone gotten this ?
it’s a 90 gallon, no skimmer, no exports of nutrients of any type supper simple set up . No sump either. It has a canister filter for mechanical filtration. That is it . The aquarium has constantly low Nutrients. As a background. Thx

 

[ScottB]

Added a new tank to an existing system. Probably rushed things a little too much and now I have dinos that I have been dealing with. Upped feedings and bioload but still having trouble keeping phos detectable so I have neophos on order. I have been dosing vibrant to the tank and sucking out all the dinos every night. I have been making progress, although I have lost a few acros that had dinos growing on the coral. I am now in the middle of a fairly bad bacteria bloom. I'm not sure what to attribute the bacteria bloom to and how long it will last?

I would hold off on adding bacteria (Vibrant) while the tank lacks stability. And lacks nutrient.

Point powerheads toward the surface for some gas exchange; the bacteria is consuming all the O2. Make sure skimmer is running @Max.

For the dinos:
a) 4 out of 5 species respond well to UV. 1 watt per three gallons. Slow flow.
b) Poor man's UV: clamp a bunch of filter floss in high flow/light areas. Rinse each evening.
c) No phyto, no amino. They just supercharge the dinos. No GFO, no carbon dosing.
d) run some GAC (carbon)
e) elevate nutrients until you get cyano. Then hold them steady there.

 

[Butcher333]

PH of 8.1-8.5 favors Dino also. The higher the PH the more you favor Dino’s. I linked an article a few posts back which explains all this.

 

[ScottB]

I haven’t searched this whole thread , but I’m battling Dino’s now and it’s on glass and rocks . Oddly it’s leaving the gravel alone .
But my weird problem is the Dino’s are on bubbles on the surface , I never seen this before. I got 2 power heads and 2 spray bars aimed at the surface , but this scum persists. I started doseing sodium nitrate it helps but anyone gotten this ?
it’s a 90 gallon, no skimmer, no exports of nutrients of any type supper simple set up . No sump either. It has a canister filter for mechanical filtration. That is it . The aquarium has constantly low Nutrients. As a background. Thx

Without an overflow it is hard to remove flotsam.

If the dinos are not present on the substrate, that tends to suggest they are NOT amphidinium which is good. The other 4 common species can be managed or removed with a properly sized UV. You would need about 30 watts to clear it up.

 

[Backreefing]

Without an overflow it is hard to remove flotsam.

If the dinos are not present on the substrate, that tends to suggest they are NOT amphidinium which is good. The other 4 common species can be managed or removed with a properly sized UV. You would need about 30 watts to clear it up.

Th x for the reply , I only have 9 watts now . It ain’t doing anything, the canister filter just happened to have that one . I just checked phosphate and nitrates both nothing on api kits . I think it’s accurate because of no algae. A few days ago I stopped doseing sodium nitrate because it started going up to 10 .

 

[hotdrop]

I give up on mine. Had a couple months when they went away but now back with a vengeance. Honestly I don’t think anything actually helps.

Nutrients have been steady for months
nitrates 12
Phosphates .1-.2

high temp didn’t work
Blasting didn’t work
Uv didn’t work
Blackouts don’t work more than a couple days
Peroxiding didn’t work
Honestly I think at this point I might just give up let them kill what’s left, hit them with DinoX and failing that just do a full restart. its been 7 months now and it feels pretty hopeless
No water changes delays outbreak till next water change but not a long term help.

Its kind of like fighting cancer with naturopathy, just waste a lot of money for false hope.

 

[Butcher333]

I give up on mine. Had a couple months when they went away but now back with a vengeance. Honestly I don’t think anything actually helps.

Nutrients have been steady for months
nitrates 12
Phosphates .1-.2

high temp didn’t work
Blasting didn’t work
Uv didn’t work
Blackouts don’t work more than a couple days
Peroxiding didn’t work
Honestly I think at this point I might just give up let them kill what’s left, hit them with DinoX and failing that just do a full restart. its been 7 months now and it feels pretty hopeless
No water changes delays outbreak till next water change but not a long term help.

Its kind of like fighting cancer with naturopathy, just waste a lot of money for false hope.

Sucky. It’s so strange these weren’t a common issue back in the day. Now a plague.

 

[Butcher333]

Maybe hope in the future. Shewanella sp. IRI-160 Is a bacteria which doesn’t harm other ocean life that may some day be available for the reef hobby. Specifically targets dinoflagellates. They intend to use it on a rather large scale to battle blooms in Florida and etc. something that could be used on that large a scale couldn’t be too expensive for a hobbyist’s tank. Wonder why it isn’t bottled and on shelves yet.

 

[ScottB]

Th x for the reply , I only have 9 watts now . It ain’t doing anything, the canister filter just happened to have that one . I just checked phosphate and nitrates both nothing on api kits . I think it’s accurate because of no algae. A few days ago I stopped doseing sodium nitrate because it started going up to 10 .

API is OK for nitrate testing, but not OK for PO4 testing when nutrients get low. Might be time to invest in a Hanna ULR Phosphate checker.

 

[ScottB]

I give up on mine. Had a couple months when they went away but now back with a vengeance. Honestly I don’t think anything actually helps.

Nutrients have been steady for months
nitrates 12
Phosphates .1-.2

high temp didn’t work
Blasting didn’t work
Uv didn’t work
Blackouts don’t work more than a couple days
Peroxiding didn’t work
Honestly I think at this point I might just give up let them kill what’s left, hit them with DinoX and failing that just do a full restart. its been 7 months now and it feels pretty hopeless
No water changes delays outbreak till next water change but not a long term help.

Its kind of like fighting cancer with naturopathy, just waste a lot of money for false hope.

Sounds like large cell amphidinium. Am I right? There are several folks over on the amphidinium thread that pretty much stopped all dino interventions and let them exhaust themselves.

Any chance you are dosing aminos? If I walk by my tank with a bottle the dinos show up.

 

[hotdrop]

Sounds like large cell amphidinium. Am I right? There are several folks over on the amphidinium thread that pretty much stopped all dino interventions and let them exhaust themselves.

Any chance you are dosing aminos? If I walk by my tank with a bottle the dinos show up.

8+ months ago yeah I dosed them. Honestly the one thing I haven’t done is buy a microscope. I know everyone says to do that but the treatment plan doesn’t change. I’m running bare bottom already.

Outbreak are all the same pattern, I notice a sudden recession of coraline and brown stringy algee starts showing up during the day. It is possible that I have a different strain now because so far acros aren’t dieing or even mad, only thing dieing is the blastos

 

[ScottB]

8+ months ago yeah I dosed them. Honestly the one thing I haven’t done is buy a microscope. I know everyone says to do that but the treatment plan doesn’t change. I’m running bare bottom already.

Outbreak are all the same pattern, I notice a sudden recession of coraline and brown stringy algee starts showing up during the day. It is possible that I have a different strain now because so far acros aren’t dieing or even mad, only thing dieing is the blastos

I had ostreopsis outbreaks. My acros never minded. Some chalice, birds nest, and yes blastos were not very happy. As to the microscope, you are mostly correct. The primary variance in treatment is for large cell amphids, as they won't swim into the UV, so deploying UV if you have them is pointless.

I still have not seen a consensus form around amphidinium treatment besides pulling the sand and/or waiting it out.

 

[hotdrop]

I had ostreopsis outbreaks. My acros never minded. Some chalice, birds nest, and yes blastos were not very happy. As to the microscope, you are mostly correct. The primary variance in treatment is for large cell amphids, as they won't swim into the UV, so deploying UV if you have them is pointless.

I still have not seen a consensus form around amphidinium treatment besides pulling the sand and/or waiting it out.

Last outbreak I killed off a couple hundred bucks worth of acros All of them actually. We will see what happens this round

 

[Boss]

Th x for the reply , I only have 9 watts now . It ain’t doing anything, the canister filter just happened to have that one . I just checked phosphate and nitrates both nothing on api kits . I think it’s accurate because of no algae. A few days ago I stopped doseing sodium nitrate because it started going up to 10 .

If using an API nitrate test kit, make sure to shake bottle #2 vigorously for 30 secs at least. Bang on the table also. The liquid solidifies in the bottom of bottle and can make your reading falsely come out as zero. I learned this the hard way just last week. I was measuring zero for weeks and then someone told me this. I had been moderately shaking the bottle before measurements, but not enough. After shaking vigorously and banging on the table, I got a reading of 40 ppm (right after measuring zero minutes earlier with moderate shaking).