Dinoflagellates – Are You Tired Of Battling Altogether?

[Flippers4pups]

Could this be the "silver bullet" we've been looking for?

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/09670260400019741

 

[taricha]

Could this be the "silver bullet" we've been looking for?

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/09670260400019741

A different Ulva species has been looked into in this thread for the same reason - Allelopathic effects against dinos.
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/dinoflagellate-problem-could-ulva-lactuca-be-the-answer.528649/
AlgaeBarn has been active and supportive in that thread. I don't know if people have seen definitive results, but I haven't scoured that thread super close.

 

[Flippers4pups]

A different Ulva species has been looked into in this thread for the same reason - Allelopathic effects against dinos.
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/dinoflagellate-problem-could-ulva-lactuca-be-the-answer.528649/
AlgaeBarn has been active and supportive in that thread. I don't know if people have seen definitive results, but I haven't scoured that thread super close.

Thank you. I'll read it when I get home from work.

 

[chvvkumar]

Accidentally posted in the wrong thread. But here are my images.
What are these things on my sand bed?! I looked at a couple of ID guides and they don't really match with any thing I have seen Full picture and a part cropped in to show detail:

They look like Diatoms.
Not a problem, get a clean up crew, they love to eat them

It may be good to not look at it as a battle, but part of your biome In the tank expanding. These are one of the good guys. Ugly, but good. They have a lot of silica in them and the snails and other critters need that.

Also many people try and grow these to outcompete and get rid of certain Dino strains.

from Chevvkumar:

This is an interesting shot. It looks like diatoms organized along long strands. Could the strands be hair algae? It looks so pale. Maybe the diatoms are eating the hair algae.

Wow that is cool. Green and all lined up. I don't see green diatoms very much. Are they stealing chloroplasts?

So I think I finally got a handle on things.

I did not know my phosphate levels so first thing I did was go get a Hanna ULR checker. My level was 0.14ppm. So then I grabbed some Seachem Phosbond and added it to the tank.

Now after 4 days, the diatoms are not back as they did before.

I am going to closely monitor the levels and see how things go. Here are my readings before adding PhosBond:

Thank you for all your help!

 

[kartrsu]

Had a quick question about amphidinium dinos. I had killed off ostreopsis for a month and then did a water change. I made sure to keep my nutrients up right afterwards, but got lazy last week. Seems like now I’m getting amphidinium dinos (great, moving from one to the another ... ;Rage). It’s still early but they are multiplying. I just dosed to 0.1ppm phosphate and 10ppm nitrate. Seems like the best option is to dose silicate for diatoms to outcompete. Is that a short term solution? If I get a diatom bloom, but stop dosing silicates, don’t the amphidinium dinos just return? Seems like these dinos are relatively benign and more an eye sore. Should I just wait it out? Tank is 4 months old, so still darn new, and rather let it coast than freak out and mess with it (been stressful enough already!)

Thanks!

 

[Backreefing]

Hi friends I have a question about doseing nitrates and phosphate for the treatment of these dang Dino’s. If you dose nitrates should You dose phosphate and vise verse. Or is there a ratio of no3- po4 ?
Example if you’re shooting for 5 no3 what should po4 be ? .2 ?

 

[kartrsu]

Hi friends I have a question about doseing nitrates and phosphate for the treatment of these dang Dino’s. If you dose nitrates should You dose phosphate and vise verse. Or is there a ratio of no3- po4 ?
Example if you’re shooting for 5 no3 what should po4 be ? .2 ?

I’ve read to keep it at 10ppm nitrate to 0.1ppm phosphate. I’m sure others will chime in on their recommendations.

 

[ScottB]

Hi friends I have a question about doseing nitrates and phosphate for the treatment of these dang Dino’s. If you dose nitrates should You dose phosphate and vise verse. Or is there a ratio of no3- po4 ?
Example if you’re shooting for 5 no3 what should po4 be ? .2 ?

I recommend getting you PO4 up before dosing nitrates. Depending on how much rock you have, it can take a lot of PO4 dosing to reach and remain >0 phosphate through the day. Solve PO4 first, then start dosing nitrates. Once you start dosing nitrates, you can expect your PO4 levels to fall for a bit, then level off.

I keep ~.1 phosphate and ~15 nitrates.

 

[ScottB]

Had a quick question about amphidinium dinos. I had killed off ostreopsis for a month and then did a water change. I made sure to keep my nutrients up right afterwards, but got lazy last week. Seems like now I’m getting amphidinium dinos (great, moving from one to the another ... ;Rage). It’s still early but they are multiplying. I just dosed to 0.1ppm phosphate and 10ppm nitrate. Seems like the best option is to dose silicate for diatoms to outcompete. Is that a short term solution? If I get a diatom bloom, but stop dosing silicates, don’t the amphidinium dinos just return? Seems like these dinos are relatively benign and more an eye sore. Should I just wait it out? Tank is 4 months old, so still darn new, and rather let it coast than freak out and mess with it (been stressful enough already!)

Thanks!

Fair question and it is clear you've been reading up on this.

At 4 months, I say just let it ride. Your biome is shifting around so much in the first 12 - 18 months I believe you are wise to let it do its thing. You are correct -- unlike ostreopsis -- these are not toxic, just ugly. Let 'em burn out.

 

[KimG]

Like many here I have been fighting Dinos for months.
Below is my experience so far.
It all started back in February. Don't know the exact reason (nutrients were very low and it coincided with the addition of a bag of dry sand), but I started to get dinos and a green single celled algae growing everywhere. I can post a link to the thread if anyone is interested.
Slowly it started to kill most of my sps (not many at the time).
I got quiet a lot of help here at R2R.
I started by raising my phosphate and nitrate. That backfired a bit. My scrubber stopped producing algae and phosphate ended up at 0.6 and nitrate at 30.... Unbelievably, I still could not grow any algae in the tank, including in the scrubber.
I also added a UV but no difference whatsoever (its still running). Did the mandatory 3 day blackouts. Spotless tank for a day and then all back.
Eventually I turned to H2O2. I started by dosing the recommended 1ml per 10g, kept the UV and did a 3 day black out.
Same result.
Then, while talking to a friend and fellow refer about H2O2, he tells me that he just beat is hair algae problem that he had been battling for over a year (due to a temperature crash) by dosing 20ml 30% H2O2 in a 60 gallon (water volume) system. No ill effects for is corals (although he had very few after all the issues).
So I bit the bullet and dosed 12 ml 30% H2O2 in a similar size tank. That's about 2 ml per gallon of 3% H2O2 (yes, its not a typo). Morning and evening.
I had two species of dinos in the tank. The H2O2 did the trick in one of them. No more dinos on rocks or walls.
Some corals were ticked. However, it may have been from the nitrate and phosphate. While dosing the H2O2 my algae started to grow better and better. Nitrate and phosphate have started to come down.
Unfortunately, still had dinos on the sand bed. This were identified as prorocentrum, by Taricha. :mad::mad::mad::mad::mad: jerks do't like leaving the sand, which is why I guess the peroxide did not affect them much.
So, about 10 days ago I stopped the H2O2 and I started to treat with DinoX. I'm also blowing the sand bed every night to try and get them in the water column. So far is getting much better. While they are still present, there is less everyday. So I plan to run the treatment until the end (30 days) and them probably still dose H2O2 after in low doses for maintenance.
Would I recommend such a high dose of H2O2 to everyone? I guess it depends one how bad the case is and how desperate you are.... I have had live rock in the shopping basket multiple times over the last 5 to 6 months. Pure stubbornness is the only think that kept me from restarting it.
I have finally order 2 kg of live rock which I plan to add later (it will go to a frag tank for observation for a month or two).
As I mentioned, the corals have been pretty ticked. Also, I notice one of my fire shrimp missing during the H2O2. Not sure if this was the cause as I never saw the body. I have another one and its doing great. The snails hate the H2O2 (dance like crazy as soon as I put it in) but I have lost very few since I started to dose VS before, when the dinos where there in full strength. Fish do't seem to notice to much.
Interestingly, in the midst of all of this, the tank as finally started to grow coraline algae in different places.....
How will this end???? good question. This tank as been a real struggle for a long time, so we will see. I will re update once I get further with the treatment.


Current state (never mind the death corals). Reminders of the war.

 

[christwendt]

I would hold off on adding bacteria (Vibrant) while the tank lacks stability. And lacks nutrient.

Point powerheads toward the surface for some gas exchange; the bacteria is consuming all the O2. Make sure skimmer is running @Max.

For the dinos:
a) 4 out of 5 species respond well to UV. 1 watt per three gallons. Slow flow.
b) Poor man's UV: clamp a bunch of filter floss in high flow/light areas. Rinse each evening.
c) No phyto, no amino. They just supercharge the dinos. No GFO, no carbon dosing.
d) run some GAC (carbon)
e) elevate nutrients until you get cyano. Then hold them steady there.

Hey Scott. I got my UV sterilizer but I think my flow is too much ? I have a 20 gallon. I bought the desktop UV sterilizer by IM. It goes in back chamber and uses my return pump for flow through it. I have a lot of flow my return pimp is sice 1.5 (357) gph. It’s an all in one tank so there is very little travel reducing the gph. Is this too fast of flow through my UV? I’ve had it running for 3 days and considering my lights have been on for over a week this is the best I’ve seen it in almost 2 months. I think I may finally be getting a handle thanks to you and everyone’s advice.
Funny thing you mentioned - don’t dose bacteria like vibrant for a new unstable tank. That’s exactly what I believe killed all my fish when trying to fix Dino’s with microbactor 7. Thankfully the fish store refunded everything. I currently have my light reduced to only 40 percent blues right now to help them from reproducing. I’m just wondering if I need to reduce flow on return pump for longer UV exposure like you mentioned.

 

[christwendt]

Also since adding UV I just scrapped glass and it seems to be white stuff now. Does that mean the dinos died ?

 

[ScottB]

Hey Scott. I got my UV sterilizer but I think my flow is too much ? I have a 20 gallon. I bought the desktop UV sterilizer by IM. It goes in back chamber and uses my return pump for flow through it. I have a lot of flow my return pimp is sice 1.5 (357) gph. It’s an all in one tank so there is very little travel reducing the gph. Is this too fast of flow through my UV? I’ve had it running for 3 days and considering my lights have been on for over a week this is the best I’ve seen it in almost 2 months. I think I may finally be getting a handle thanks to you and everyone’s advice.
Funny thing you mentioned - don’t dose bacteria like vibrant for a new unstable tank. That’s exactly what I believe killed all my fish when trying to fix Dino’s with microbactor 7. Thankfully the fish store refunded everything. I currently have my light reduced to only 40 percent blues right now to help them from reproducing. I’m just wondering if I need to reduce flow on return pump for longer UV exposure like you mentioned.

While I think that is a pretty innovative (pun) design by IM, I agree that is kinda fast for a small unit. I run similar through 26 inch tall unit.

That said, it is a fair amount of wattage for 20G so you might just get away with it. And aesthetically it is far superior to hanging something on the glass. Keep at it for a couple weeks

 

[ScottB]

Also since adding UV I just scrapped glass and it seems to be white stuff now. Does that mean the dinos died ?

I suppose it could be, but that is not something I have seen during treatment. Could also be bacterial remnants from the bloom. Either way, it beats live dinos on the glass!

 

[christwendt]

I suppose it could be, but that is not something I have seen during treatment. Could also be bacterial remnants from the bloom. Either way, it beats live dinos on the glass!

I think it is Dino because before UV I was scrapping Dino’s again (brown l, after bloom) and it wasn’t white. Now when I scrape its back to white. I will give it a couple weeks and I’m loving this UV sterilizer can’t lie. My water is so clear and a replacement bulb is only like 29.99. One benefit of all in one tanks and smaller tanks is stuff is definitely cheaper

 

[christwendt]

While I think that is a pretty innovative (pun) design by IM, I agree that is kinda fast for a small unit. I run similar through 26 inch tall unit.

That said, it is a fair amount of wattage for 20G so you might just get away with it. And aesthetically it is far superior to hanging something on the glass. Keep at it for a couple weeks

Thanks again for your valuable knowledge. If I listened to everything you said a month ago I could have not gone through losing my fish due to a bloom and consuming all the oxygen. This guy knows his stuff !

 

[taricha]

Seems like these dinos are relatively benign and more an eye sore. Should I just wait it out? Tank is 4 months old, so still darn new, and rather let it coast than freak out and mess with it

Absolutely. New tank and dinos that aren't hurting anything both suggest that you don't do too much. Maybe just siphon out the big accumulations as often as possible.

Solve PO4 first, then start dosing nitrates.

Just quoting to repeat this important point.

Also since adding UV I just scrapped glass and it seems to be white stuff now. Does that mean the dinos died ?

Dinos that go into the water leave behind most of their mucus mat and return to it later.
You might be seeing the remains of the dino slime.
(Could also be bacterial growth as mentioned earlier)

 

[ScottB]

ScottB said:
Solve PO4 first, then start dosing nitrates.

Just quoting to repeat this important point.

I have to giggle a little. I learned this from @taricha first but have since proven the theory a few times. It is an interesting relationship between the two nutrients.

There is a second feature that makes PO4 availability crucial: corals are good at consuming NO3. They can competitively access even limited amounts of it. The same is not true for PO4. They struggle to consume it, and most often consume it indirectly by consuming bacteria that have eaten PO4. Lou Ekus (Tropic Marin) did a very helpful video about it on reefdudes youtube I think.

 

[Backreefing]

I’m waiting ( forever ) for some loud wolf potassium phosphate . It’s crawling through the snail order process . My question is,is there something around an average kitchen that can be dosed until my package slowly arrives .

 

[ScottB]

I’m waiting ( forever ) for some loud wolf potassium phosphate . It’s crawling through the snail order process . My question is,is there something around an average kitchen that can be dosed until my package slowly arrives .

Sorry, not to my knowledge. If you are near Fairfield County CT I can spare probably 1/2 liter if you can pick up.