Dinoflagellates – Are You Tired Of Battling Altogether?

[Kongar]

Well, scratch all the bs I posted a couple of posts above. It didn’t work. The dinos are back on the sandbed. Went out for a couple of hours, came back to slime. Took em a few hours longer than usual, but they are back to party. Started with absolutely no sign of them, came back with the lights being turned on.

I’m giving up, made it just about a year in this hobby. I don’t know what I’m doing wrong. Kudos to all of you with those awesome tanks - you’re better at this than me.

I’m going to feed my fish and corals, maintain the right water parameters, leave the uv on, and do regular maintenance like I’m supposed to. The dinos will probably take over the whole tank and kill every coral. And if they do, then the tank becomes a fowlr tank and I’ll turn the lights off forever and enjoy my fish.

/grumble

 

[tkdman]

ugh I'm back in the Dino club. New outbreak its been over a year since I beat them with Dr. Tims and elevated temp. NO3 and point of sale hit 0 for a bit when I did to big of a water change and totally forgot about dinos. Any new techniques?
So far I have yet to break down and go the UV route I am worried plumbing it inline with my return won't help since the Dino's aren't getting picked up by my filter roller they must not be making it into the overflow.

 

[bishoptf]

Posting again, things had been looking up did a ambient lights only and the tank looks a lot better. Thats been a couple weeks but starting to see some signs in my sump, stringy with bubbles in the fuge where the chaeto is located (although it appears to be going south). I took a sample and here are the pictures, I was dealing with small cell amphid but these are not moving at all. @ScottB I noticed your comments earlier about something else going on, hoping that this is not the same thing, been dealing with this for months and just can't seem to get over the hump. Here are the pics let me know if anyone has any ideas:

Like I said they are not moving at all, just stationary. Oops meant to tag @taricha

 

[ScottB]

Posting again, things had been looking up did a ambient lights only and the tank looks a lot better. Thats been a couple weeks but starting to see some signs in my sump, stringy with bubbles in the fuge where the chaeto is located (although it appears to be going south). I took a sample and here are the pictures, I was dealing with small cell amphid but these are not moving at all. @ScottB I noticed your comments earlier about something else going on, hoping that this is not the same thing, been dealing with this for months and just can't seem to get over the hump. Here are the pics let me know if anyone has any ideas:

Like I said they are not moving at all, just stationary. Oops meant to tag @taricha

Yeah I am still dealing with symbiodinium just like you have pictured here. I can certainly tell you what HAS NOT worked so far.
UV: no effect.
Pro Bio bacteria: nope.
MB7 bacteria: nope.

Right now I am basting the stuff into the water and cranking up a canister filter to suck it out. Tedious, but at least I can look at the tank for a day or so before I have to repeat.

 

[ScottB]

Posting again, things had been looking up did a ambient lights only and the tank looks a lot better. Thats been a couple weeks but starting to see some signs in my sump, stringy with bubbles in the fuge where the chaeto is located (although it appears to be going south). I took a sample and here are the pictures, I was dealing with small cell amphid but these are not moving at all. @ScottB I noticed your comments earlier about something else going on, hoping that this is not the same thing, been dealing with this for months and just can't seem to get over the hump. Here are the pics let me know if anyone has any ideas:

Like I said they are not moving at all, just stationary. Oops meant to tag @taricha

You can tag into this thread and follow along. I think if we keep bumping it along often enough, someone will chime in with some new thinking on it.

Curious if your infestation was preceded by a little cyanobacteria? Mine was, and I "feel" like it really weakened my coralline, and this stuff is now scavenging the dying coralline.

 

[ScottB]

ugh I'm back in the Dino club. New outbreak its been over a year since I beat them with Dr. Tims and elevated temp. NO3 and point of sale hit 0 for a bit when I did to big of a water change and totally forgot about dinos. Any new techniques?
So far I have yet to break down and go the UV route I am worried plumbing it inline with my return won't help since the Dino's aren't getting picked up by my filter roller they must not be making it into the overflow.

Which dino do you have?

 

[MONTANTK]

I’ve officially lost my battle. I’m doing one more blackout and dosing phyto daily but I’m not hopeful. Elevated temp worked but unfortunately my tank is so small that I’m unable to find a heater small enough. Decided last week that it’s time to upgrade. Before transferring over the coral I have left I’m going to scrub the plugs and dip them. New tank will also have a UV sterilizer and I’ll be able to keep the temp at 79 rather than 77

 

[bishoptf]

Yeah I am still dealing with symbiodinium just like you have pictured here. I can certainly tell you what HAS NOT worked so far.
UV: no effect.
Pro Bio bacteria: nope.
MB7 bacteria: nope.

Right now I am basting the stuff into the water and cranking up a canister filter to suck it out. Tedious, but at least I can look at the tank for a day or so before I have to repeat.

I'm still hoping its not that, just thought I was turning the corner and starting seeing this. Will tag your other thread and keep up with what you are trying. Right now I only see this in my sump, I do not have many corals since this is still a young tank (7mths). I am starting to wonder if I will ever turn the corner...If I see something I am doing that makes a difference I will let you know.

Thanks

 

[fishdude123]

I recently just got dinos in my tank and was able to kill them off with increased nutrients levels. Also actively siphoned out dinos.

 

[bishoptf]

You can tag into this thread and follow along. I think if we keep bumping it along often enough, someone will chime in with some new thinking on it.

Curious if your infestation was preceded by a little cyanobacteria? Mine was, and I "feel" like it really weakened my coralline, and this stuff is now scavenging the dying coralline.

Ive been battling everything under the sun with this new tank, i've had all the above, GHA, Cyano, and dino's. I did a long ambient light only after months of nothing changing and it really looked good. I added some chaeto to the sump and dosed I mean 2 drops a day of cahetogro for 2-3 days and started seeing this pop up. Will not add anymore of that, most of my rocks are just not starting to get spots of coralline. I added some live rock when battling the other stuff in hopes of adding more diversity, along with pods. The only other thing I have been dosing is bacteria, wondering if dosing slicates to influence diatoms would outcompete this type...what do you think about dosing silicates?

 

[ScottB]

I'm still hoping its not that, just thought I was turning the corner and starting seeing this. Will tag your other thread and keep up with what you are trying. Right now I only see this in my sump, I do not have many corals since this is still a young tank (7mths). I am starting to wonder if I will ever turn the corner...If I see something I am doing that makes a difference I will let you know.

Thanks

For a young biome (7 months?) all of these ugly phases are totally natural and expected. You just manage salinity, temp, keep a little nutrient passing through the system and let it do its thing. Honestly; just let it cook. When the coralline starts holding space, you know you are getting into puberty.

 

[bishoptf]

For a young biome (7 months?) all of these ugly phases are totally natural and expected. You just manage salinity, temp, keep a little nutrient passing through the system and let it do its thing. Honestly; just let it cook. When the coralline starts holding space, you know you are getting into puberty.

Yeah but when it starts getting covered in brown goop its hard to not do something. I'd like to put more corals in the tank but keep holding off until things settle down and get stable. I have nutrients, No3 about 10ppm and po4 around .09, I am also keeping alk, ca and mg inline that has not been an issue its the dino's and algae that have been the issue. I had GHA pretty bad but that is loads better, but this has been going on for several months just not sure what to do in order to get it over the hump. I thought the brown stuff was going to be dino's again, but looking under the scope they are not moving, starting to show up on my rocks now, sigh.

 

[tkdman]

Which dino do you have?

Osteoporosis
It’s been a year Dino free so currently doing th dr. Tim’s method again.

 

[ScottB]

Osteoporosis
It’s been a year Dino free so currently doing th dr. Tim’s method again.

Unconventional but interesting. Ostreopsis respond so well to a week or two of UV strapped on the side and some nutrients. But if Dr. Tim's works for you then go get 'em.

 

[GuppyHJD]

Hello,
It looks like I have joined the club...I think I have Dinoflagellates.
My tank is 120g, that I setup in Nov 2020, and it cycled in Jan 2021 (4 months ago). The tank as 4 fish (two clowns, one blenny and one Coral Beauty) and 4 coral frags (GPS, Chalice, Candy Cane, Monti S). The tank was started with dry rock. In February the LED lights (Noopsyche K7 Pro) we setup on their LSP/SPS settings. The filtration is primarily a skimmer in the sump. My LFS had advised me to dose Seachem Stability for three months after the tank cycling, so that stopped 2.5 weeks ago.
Approximately a week ago, I noticed an area 3" round of what I believe is Dinos on the rocks on the other side of the tank from the powerhead(brown stringy algea looking with bubbles that grows during the lighted period, and seems to shrink back over night). The area has grown about an inch in the last week. I added more movement in the tank with a IceCap Gyre 4K on the opposite end of the tank, and a Aqueon power head at the end nearest the dinos.
My tank have been running with Nitrates 0.0 and Phosphates 0.0. Calcium 460-480. Magnesium 1360. My testing is using Hanna UL Phosphate, rest is Salifert. (my testing confirmed by LFS every 2 weeks) My LFS has advised me to feed the fish more and more often to raise the phosphates. Nitrates are still 0. Phosphates have jumped from 0 on March 15, .20 on March 25, .42 on March 30 and today .31. LFS also recommended dosing Red Sea AB+ which started 3/28.
Having read maybe 100-150 posts and multiple threads on this site concerning Dinos, I am planning to start dosing Microbactor 7 or Vibrant (have both on hand) and dosing ESV B-Ionic Nitrate (picking up tomorrow).
Will be changing the tank to only blue light and less hours starting with tomorrows cycle.

What am I missing?

 

[ScottB]

Hello,
It looks like I have joined the club...I think I have Dinoflagellates.
My tank is 120g, that I setup in Nov 2020, and it cycled in Jan 2021 (4 months ago). The tank as 4 fish (two clowns, one blenny and one Coral Beauty) and 4 coral frags (GPS, Chalice, Candy Cane, Monti S). The tank was started with dry rock. In February the LED lights (Noopsyche K7 Pro) we setup on their LSP/SPS settings. The filtration is primarily a skimmer in the sump. My LFS had advised me to dose Seachem Stability for three months after the tank cycling, so that stopped 2.5 weeks ago.
Approximately a week ago, I noticed an area 3" round of what I believe is Dinos on the rocks on the other side of the tank from the powerhead(brown stringy algea looking with bubbles that grows during the lighted period, and seems to shrink back over night). The area has grown about an inch in the last week. I added more movement in the tank with a IceCap Gyre 4K on the opposite end of the tank, and a Aqueon power head at the end nearest the dinos.
My tank have been running with Nitrates 0.0 and Phosphates 0.0. Calcium 460-480. Magnesium 1360. My testing is using Hanna UL Phosphate, rest is Salifert. (my testing confirmed by LFS every 2 weeks) My LFS has advised me to feed the fish more and more often to raise the phosphates. Nitrates are still 0. Phosphates have jumped from 0 on March 15, .20 on March 25, .42 on March 30 and today .31. LFS also recommended dosing Red Sea AB+ which started 3/28.
Having read maybe 100-150 posts and multiple threads on this site concerning Dinos, I am planning to start dosing Microbactor 7 or Vibrant (have both on hand) and dosing ESV B-Ionic Nitrate (picking up tomorrow).
Will be changing the tank to only blue light and less hours starting with tomorrows cycle.

What am I missing?

A couple things are missing I think.

a) Positive ID that you have dinos. search here for coffee filter test. I've posted it a dozen times.
b) assuming you have dinos, a positive ID on species. Get a cheap student microscope that does at least 400X. For ten bucks more, you can get one that does 1200X to later look at the other million microbes running around your system.
c) Honestly, at this stage of biome development, you could easily sit back and call it just another ugly phase that will be replaced by a different ugly in weeks/months. Then another.
d) Not a fan of Vibrant at this stage. When the biome is old and needs a little flushing, have at it unless you keep acropora. A little MB7 never hurt anything.
e) In the olden days, dinos were not a thing. Nowadays, dead rock and dino seem to run together like college kids and kegs (pre-covid). Get some live rock.

 

[takitaj]

I'm going to add my experience and what worked for me. It's a little long, sorry, and you can scroll down to the second section if you'd like to skip the back story but it may offer some insight as well. It's been a few weeks now and all is looking good.

I rebooted my 90 gallon about 8 years after shutting it down because of dinos. Judging by symptoms I believe it was Ostreopsis or maybe Chrysophytes. It was long, greenish brown super snot. I really don't know but it killed everything (I was running lots of carbon in a reactor too) and took up literally the entire volume of the tank. 10 years ago we had a totally different view of nutrients and I fell victim. Zeros was where it was at. lol

Fast forward to today. I set it up again back in August 2020 with new knowledge. Everything was going well except for a brown algae crud covering the rocks and blocking all the pores. There was also a perpetual cloudiness to the water but no ammonia. No3 & Po4 were steady at about 5 or less and .03-.06 respectively. I scrubbed the rocks clean a few times but the crud would creep back within a few days. I figured it was just part of the "ugly phase". One thing I should note, to this point I never had any green algae show up, not even on the glass.

I decided to add a UV system and plumbed in a 40 watt Pentair into the return line. It cleared the water within a day but didn't seem to help with the crud at all. The crud was not dinos but some kind of brown algae that hugs the rocks tight and scrubs off in chunks, almost like cyano but thicker.

After running the UV 24/7 for a week or 2 I started seeing a weird rusty brown stuff on the sand and at first I thought it might be Diatoms. I did see Diatoms for the first few weeks after cycling but these looked a little different. Fortunately nothing was dying and some snails and the Clown Tang even seemed to be eating it. After vacuuming the sand it would slowly return within a few days. It would be sparse in the mornings but you could see it hiding deep in the sand on the edges, through the glass, and move up to cover the sand throughout the day. Cue the microscope purchase. I was able to ID it as Large Cell Amphidinium. My heart sank! Here is where this little adventure started.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So I knew what I had now and that it was one of the hardest to beat. I started looking at what I could do to rid them from my tank. I tried everything I could find in the threads, mostly one at a time and some combinations so I could maybe determine what worked and maybe be able to post a fix for others. I tried raising nutrients, vacuuming, H2O2 dosing (even very large doses up to 40 ml a day), Dr. Tim's dino method (3 day blackout w/Refresh & Waste Away), the other popular method that I can't think of the name, copepods, MB7, Biospira, Bio-S, etc. on and on. Nothing would affect them. Funny thing, my nutrients stayed stable the whole time.

At this point I was getting desperate and in the back of my mind I could see the end...again. I had used some Vibrant and some Chemi-Clean red slime remover in attempts to rid the crud on the rocks as it couldn't be helpful to have all the rock pores blocked off. Didn't work. I was getting desperate!

The one thing I hadn't tried was large doses of Vibrant. I threw everything else in there and some were way overdosed in desperation. So what did I have to loose. I was near starting over AGAIN so hey, why not? I scrubbed the rocks, stirred the top layer of sand up (to get it into the water column and through the UV) and went through almost a full roll on my Clarisea SK5000! Was going to be well worth it if this worked. Now with clean rocks I did a water change and added a bottle of Biospira to replace anything that might have been smothered out by the crud and dinos.

Then I started adding 30-40 ml of Vibrant DAILY (3-4 ml / 10 gal) for 5 days. No black out & no water changes. To my delight on the second or third day I was actually seeing it start to regress! The rocks stayed clean as well, yay! A couple days after the treatment I did a water change and still nothing emerged. Now was the perfect time to address the obvious biome imbalance and started daily dosing MB7 again, at normal levels.

After a couple weeks I started seeing green again. Never thought I'd be so happy to start seeing GHA everywhere. lol The nutrients started rising...ut oh. PO4 ran up to .18 and NO3 spiked up to around 40 ppm! Seems things were doing what they should again. Water changes got the NO3 down to around 20 and PO4 stayed stable around .1. Eventually with the MB7 dosing the PO4 dropped to .05-.06 and where it stays now feeding 3 cubes of frozen/day plus a few pellets for the Clown. Nitrates stayed the same but regular water changes is slowly bringing it down.

I now have a mild case of GHA on some rocks and some other fuzzy green algae spread around the sand. I would consider this fairly normal ugly stage stuff since I seemed to have skipped it and I'm starting normal weekly dosing of Vibrant to slowly beat it back.

As for the live stock, nothing was lost and really nothing seemed to be affected by all this. At the time I had several fish; 2 Lyre Tail Anthias (1 male, 1 female), a pair of Clowns (female jumped overnight ) & a Clown Tang. I had a couple corals, a Duncan, Some Blastomusas & a small un-identified SPS. Several snails, Cerths, Dwarf Cerths, Nerities & Astreas. Also a few small hermits. LPS did not shrink up, SPS still had good PE and snails & fish went about their business as though nothing was happening. I also had some Gracillaria macro algae that was un-affected as well.

Nothing good happens fast in a reef...except for getting rid of dinos. I don't know if this is the magic cure, and if you do try it you do so at your own risk, but this is how I beat back this plague. I just wish I tried it sooner!

<insert huge sigh of relief here>

Could it be this simple? We'll see. So far so good....

Good luck to all who have to deal with this petulance!!

 

[taricha]

Cue the microscope purchase. I was able to ID it as Large Cell Amphidinium. My heart sank! Here is where this little adventure started.

...

So I knew what I had now and that it was one of the hardest to beat.

...but it's also the least harmful!
Nothing personal, and that's awesome that you've had success. I don't have all the answers, and our best advice is clearly still missing some important things we haven't figured out yet. So no criticism for those who chose to go 180 degrees different.

but for others reading, if I had large cell amphidinium I would advocate doing literally nothing as preferable to intentional overdoses of peroxide, vibrant etc.

I think conservative steps make the most sense for generally harmless eyesores.

 

[blasterman]

My grow out tank bottomed out nitrate and phosphate recently and dinos popped up over nigh. Ive only had to deal with them few times over the years luckily....

My strain where it wraps around digipora stalks actually kills the tissue, so its not harmless.

Oddly my break out is not getting worse. Just annoying, and it loves to wrap around montipora.

My portable UV sterilizer knocks them out but they return in a few days. I run ozone periodically and cranking that up has no affect. If ozone doesn't work I fail to see how peroxide will work since both function via oxidation.

Since the infestation seems to self limiting i will probably resort to cranking up nitrate and reduced light time. Ive found 3 day blackouts too hard on SPS.

 

[taricha]

Since the infestation seems to self limiting i will probably resort to cranking up nitrate and reduced light time. Ive found 3 day blackouts too hard on SPS.

Right. If UV is effective, then reductions in light or photoperiod or short blackouts can achieve the desired effect (pushing dinos to relocate to the water) without the need for a traditional 3-day blackout.