Dinoflagellates – Are You Tired Of Battling Altogether?

[BostonReefer300]

Thanks I am giving it a go. And my big CUC and my 5 herbivorous fish should all be pretty fat in a month! Just installed the temporary UV setup in my DT on low flow (~250 gph). Fingers crossed

Here's a 10-day update after starting the 'dirty tank method' a second time. Short story: lots of good progress. (Knock on wood)

Starting a couple months ago, I developed a bad prorocentrum-dominant dino problem (microscope confirmed) in my 300G mixed reef. First time in 10 years that I've had noticeable dinos. After trying a few different remedies, I resorted to the dirty tank method. Although this didn't eradicate the dinos, I believe it at least stopped the infestation from getting any worse. During the first couple weeks of this experiment, I couldn't get my NO3/PO4 above 3 ppm and 0.02 ppm respectively (Hanna)---so I started modest dosing of Seachem Nitrogen and Phosphorus Flourish. Unfortunately, all this led to a huge algae/cyano outbreak which itself was bothering my corals and my mental health. (However, my measured nutrient levels never rose---the algae and cyano sucked them out of the water.) Therefore, I abandoned the dirty tank method and started doing an aggressive series of water changes, started using GFO again, dosed Vibrant and Microbacter7 (not at same time), and did a big refresh of my CUC. Algae/cyano started receding after a week or so.

Then I had a very bad ostreopsis-dominant dino outbreak on Wednesday 5/26 a day after a big water change. Brown stringy goop covering everything. Corals were really suffering. On Thursday 5/27, I re-plumbed my UV to be on an independent closed loop in/out of my DT and put it on low flow (~250-300GPH). No more water changes and removed GFO, but still using carbon. Regular feeding (2 cubes spirulina brine shrimp, 1 tablespoon Omega One Veggle Kelp flakes, 1 teaspoon reef roids, 1/3 nori sheet, and nighttime dosing of red sea reef energy AB+). No supplemental nutrient or Vibrant dosing. One dose of Microbacter7. PLENTY of daily turkey basting of the and rocks---but intentionally not the Loc-Line returns or overflows so I could use growth there to monitor progress. Regular skimming and regular changing of felt filter socks.

The outbreak got worse over the first couple days, then stabilized for a couple days. Five days in, I thought I could see an improvement but I figured I was imagining it. Eight days in, the brown goop was largely gone from Loc-Line and overflows. Yesterday, just about all the brown goop was gone. I still have prorocentrum dinos in numerous spots (lots of bubbles, but little goop), but the ostreopsis has largely vanished.

My NO3 hasn't risen above 5 ppm and my PO4 hasn't gone above 0.05 ppm. I do have a cyano outbreak now and plenty of film algae on the glass, etc., but no other troubling algae as of yet. I'm going to stick to this hands-off approach for now and carefully monitor my nutrients and watch algae/cyano. If the latter gets bad, I'll do a 5% water change and see what happens after a couple days. Despite my doubts as to the increased efficacy of having the UV closed-looped in the DT, that really seems to have made a difference---at least with the ostreopsis. I'm also wondering if the previous Vibrant use was one of the culprits behind my dino problems. Jury is still out on Vibrant though.

Sorry for the long posts on my dino battles. However, I hope these chronicles will be helpful to someone someday.

 

[ScottB]

Well add me to the list of unfortunate souls that managed to get dino's from using Chemiclean. It's bad too, my tank has never looked so terrible and I'm now concerned for my corals. I've been dosing 10mL of NeoNitro and 8mL Phosphate for 3 days as well as MB7 and haven't made much progress. Turned off skimmer, added a bag of carbon last night and went ahead and killed my lights about halfway through the day. Hasn't seemed to get better since killing the lights but hasn't gotten worse either so I guess that's a plus. I guess a microscope is next for me.

Sorry, but yeah, an increasingly common pattern it seems.

Do you know what your nutrients were like just prior to the Chemi treatment? Many folks get away with using Chemi just fine, so just trying to glean what factors play into the dino outcome.

On the bright side, owning a microscope is kinda cool once you get used to using it.

 

[InvaderJim]

Sorry, but yeah, an increasingly common pattern it seems.

Do you know what your nutrients were like just prior to the Chemi treatment? Many folks get away with using Chemi just fine, so just trying to glean what factors play into the dino outcome.

On the bright side, owning a microscope is kinda cool once you get used to using it.

They were low, but not zero. Getting my phosphates up has always been a battle in this tank so I constantly have to dose it, nitrate usually is steady around 5ppm. I think not upping my dosing during chemiclean was an oversight on my part.

It does looks like the dinos all disappear and return to the water column with lights off so I'm considering a UV sterilizer to take care of it if I can justify the price.

I'm usually not opposed to buying a new toy to play with.

 

[Biff0rz]

@ScottB - I've been having some major sps issues, I still think its related to dino's. I took this video today, what kind are these?

This is where I took the sample from, on the intake to my UV. It looks like a combination of dead gha and dino, maybe my flow on the uv is incorrect? Nitrates haven't dropped from 25-40 for a while now except this week they are just above 10.

One of my rocks keeps getting covered in this:

sps aren't happy:

 

[CDavmd]

@ScottB - I've been having some major sps issues, I still think its related to dino's. I took this video today, what kind are these?

This is where I took the sample from, on the intake to my UV. It looks like a combination of dead gha and dino, maybe my flow on the uv is incorrect? Nitrates haven't dropped from 25-40 for a while now except this week they are just above 10.

One of my rocks keeps getting covered in this:

sps aren't happy:

your were zipping around pretty quickly but I saw mainly small cell amphidinium. I thought I saw a few ostreopsis mixed in but overall mainly small cell amphidinium. You have a reasonable amount of other microfauna there, diatoms, etc. as well.

I'd suggest clipping some filter floss in the tank in an area of flow. They will attach and attract to it rather than your SPS. Just wash it in water and peroxide at the end of the day and put it back in. Increase your flow as well, you want to keep them from getting on your sps like in your photo as it will kill the sps.

 

[Biff0rz]

your were zipping around pretty quickly but I saw mainly small cell amphidinium. I thought I saw a few ostreopsis mixed in but overall mainly small cell amphidinium. You have a reasonable amount of other microfauna there, diatoms, etc. as well.

I'd suggest clipping some filter floss in the tank in an area of flow. They will attach and attract to it rather than your SPS. Just wash it in water and peroxide at the end of the day and put it back in. Increase your flow as well, you want to keep them from getting on your sps like in your photo as it will kill the sps.

Hmm, I'm not sure how I would mount the filter floss, any suggestions? (I've never done that before). I have 4 wave makers right now and they are about 15" down from the top in the middle section of the tank. The thing about the tips in the picture, they pretty much have direct flow on them, I'm not sure if that helped or hurt the situation. Thanks for the help so far!

 

[Cool tangs]

Hmm, I'm not sure how I would mount the filter floss, any suggestions? (I've never done that before). I have 4 wave makers right now and they are about 15" down from the top in the middle section of the tank. The thing about the tips in the picture, they pretty much have direct flow on them, I'm not sure if that helped or hurt the situation. Thanks for the help so far!

What are your phosphates at? Are you running any GFO? How olds your rock?

I battled dino before and the best thing to beat them is do nothing. My issue is a ran GFO like a noob and that stripped all my phosphates out, as soon as i took it offline and raised my phosphates they dispeared within a month

Goodluck

 

[CDavmd]

Hmm, I'm not sure how I would mount the filter floss, any suggestions? (I've never done that before). I have 4 wave makers right now and they are about 15" down from the top in the middle section of the tank. The thing about the tips in the picture, they pretty much have direct flow on them, I'm not sure if that helped or hurt the situation. Thanks for the help so far!

Just use a nori magnetic clip and take a filter pad or floss and clip it to the glass like a sheet of Nori

 

[Biff0rz]

What are your phosphates at? Are you running any GFO? How olds your rock?

I battled dino before and the best thing to beat them is do nothing. My issue is a ran GFO like a noob and that stripped all my phosphates out, as soon as i took it offline and raised my phosphates they dispeared within a month

Goodluck

po4 is at 0.14 but I have a bit of GHA growing in the tank. I suspect it's probably closer to .2/.3 if all the gha was gone. I am running gfo, it's brought the po4 down slightly, it has not bottomed out, I test frequently (multiple times a week). Rock is pretty old, tank has been up for 8-9mo now.

Just use a nori magnetic clip and take a filter pad or floss and clip it to the glass like a sheet of Nori

hah, pretty easy then. thanks!

 

[ScottB]

@ScottB - I've been having some major sps issues, I still think its related to dino's. I took this video today, what kind are these?


This is where I took the sample from, on the intake to my UV. It looks like a combination of dead gha and dino, maybe my flow on the uv is incorrect? Nitrates haven't dropped from 25-40 for a while now except this week they are just above 10.

One of my rocks keeps getting covered in this:


sps aren't happy:

Agree with @CDavmd on small cell and ostreopsis. Also like the suggestion to clamp a bunch of filter floss to the glass in high light and flow areas. Ostreos in particular loved to cling to the stuff.

I see the acro damage. If the flow is direct that could contribute to necrosis for sure. Clip back the dead skeleton well back into the flesh.

Ostreos do possess toxins for sure. Run some GAC to remove.

Lastly, what is your UV setup again? Wattage and flow approx? Assuming all good there, your ostreos will clear first. Small cell are a little more challenging. Keep up on the PO4 testing. Don't add any aminos for a long time. Stay patient.

 

[ScottB]

po4 is at 0.14 but I have a bit of GHA growing in the tank. I suspect it's probably closer to .2/.3 if all the gha was gone. I am running gfo, it's brought the po4 down slightly, it has not bottomed out, I test frequently (multiple times a week). Rock is pretty old, tank has been up for 8-9mo now.


hah, pretty easy then. thanks!

Hey one other thing you can do to encourage the small cell to take a swim at the UV. Wrap the tank with large black trash bags and do a lights out. This assumes a proper UV set up is in place.

I crushed a prorocentrum explosion that way in 36 hours.

 

[InvaderJim]

After noticing all or most of my dinos return to the water column at night I'm trying to justify buying a UV sterilizer but man they are steep. Corals are noticeably better looking today than they have been in days though. I feel like I could have them knocked out quick though.

 

[BostonReefer300]

After noticing all or most of my dinos return to the water column at night I'm trying to justify buying a UV sterilizer but man they are steep. Corals are noticeably better looking today than they have been in days though. I feel like I could have them knocked out quick though.

I've often wondered why reef UVs are so expensive relative to other pieces of equipment. After all, it's just some PVC and a power brick. Maybe the quartz sleeve is expensive? I need to upgrade to more UV wattage for my tank and I'm seriously considering a DIY option here.

 

[ScottB]

I've often wondered why reef UVs are so expensive relative to other pieces of equipment. After all, it's just some PVC and a power brick. Maybe the quartz sleeve is expensive? I need to upgrade to more UV wattage for my tank and I'm seriously considering a DIY option here.

Ballasts & bulbs & seals. All that really matters. Just don't quote me on that.

Some of the cheap small units melt in weeks so there might be more to it than my non-engineering mind can grasp.

 

[BostonReefer300]

Ballasts & bulbs & seals. All that really matters. Just don't quote me on that.

Some of the cheap small units melt in weeks so there might be more to it than my non-engineering mind can grasp.

I feel inspired to start a new thread on this in the DIY forum!

 

[InvaderJim]

Ballasts & bulbs & seals. All that really matters. Just don't quote me on that.

Some of the cheap small units melt in weeks so there might be more to it than my non-engineering mind can grasp.

Was browsing the thread looking for pump suggestions and saw your setup. What pump are you running on your HOB UV rig?

 

[taricha]

After noticing all or most of my dinos return to the water column at night I'm trying to justify buying a UV sterilizer but man they are steep. Corals are noticeably better looking today than they have been in days though. I feel like I could have them knocked out quick though.

Get a UV, but in the meantime...

Poor Man's UV
I wanted to (re)post this, as recently I've seen a couple of people with massive populations of dinos who are not apparently doing any real export. And this idea seems to have been lost in the depths of a few thousand posts. I originally stole it from user nvladik.
Hang some filter floss directly in front of one or two of your powerheads. Let it blow in the flow like a flag. Ostreopsis will attach to floss more than anything else in the tank. Turns out they don't care what they attach to - just looking for a good spot with tons of flow and some light, and they actually prefer rough surfaces to slime coats etc. Rinse the filter floss out daily (or a couple times a day) in tap water until it's white again. Use gloves - the toxins in question are serious business.

(above pic shows the accumulated ostreopsis from a single lights-on cycle in a tank with barely visible dinos, then wrung out into a beaker showing what's collected is 90%+ pure ostis)

This is for those with cells that go into the water - Ostreopsis especially - but it may work with others prorocentrum, coolia, etc I didn't try when I had those. This trick will allow you to easily concentrate and export almost exclusively dinos. It's also appropriate while UV is getting set up - may suffice in some cases as "poor man's uv" , or in addition to UV.

This will export a large majority of the ostreopsis daily. It is not a cure, but it is control for you, relief for your coral and other tank inhabitants, allows you to do whatever your corals need (water changes, Ca, Alk, etc), removes urgency and anxiety, and gives you flexibility for your next move. This is how I had ostreopsis for a couple of months without losing any livestock or it being able to form stringy masses in my tank. Ostis stayed almost invisible while I had filter floss. (I actually never ran UV on my main tank.)

Additional benefits:

• physical removal of the majority of dinos is an important step in advancing any other treatment plan.
• prevents stringy masses from forming on corals.
• turns brown to show you if it's working.
• can be easily wrung out into a beaker to sample what you have.
• may possibly work as a diagnostic test for whether your strain is UV targetable / is going into the water. I don't know how well types other than ostis will attach, but the stringier it is, the likelier they will attach.
• is a really easy tune-up if a small smattering of dinos re-appears.
• is very selective: removes pretty much exclusively dinos

 

[fachatga]

Hi. Just looking for a little advise. Tank only 2 months old. Think have some Dino’s. Maybe other things. I’ll invest in a microscope but will be a few days before I get one. Don’t have UV sterilizer either. Probably should have one of them. Maybe a week or two out from having that in hand. But for now maybe some advise on things to be doing. I don’t have good pics but just picture the typical dirty tank. 2/3 was dry rock. 1/3 live. The dry has some green algae on it. Most of the long stringy things (dinos?) are gone. Half of the sand is mainly clean as it was all brown a week ago. I’ve got lots of clumps of bush like Algae on my rocks I just can’t get off. Even with my hand. No idea what it is. But I’m sure there are still some kind of dinos in here just not as bad as it was before. I only have 5 fish, CUC, and one zoa polyp which actually is looking great. I put lights to 15% blue for 12 hrs and zero white on Friday. Don’t want them totally off because they do seem to regulate day and night for my leopard wrasse and yellow coris wrasse. No gfo. Do run carbon reactor. I replace filter socks and some floss in sump 5x per week. I baste 2-3 rocks a night. Wasn’t sure if it would be bad to overload the water with so much gunk. Glass is getting covered with film algae. Should i clean that off? Phosphates are .08 and nitrates are .5-1. Never dosed nitrate but think I should. I have some copepods in the tank so I put in 20 mg phyto every other day or so. I think things are slowly getting better. It’s the uglies so I’m not in such a bad position. Should I stay the course and give it a few weeks? Maybe dose nitrates? In the past week I’ve dosed microbacter 7 twice too. I’m getting some slightly mixed signals reading through all of these threads. Probably just me being a little confused. So any advise will be well received. I’ll take some pics in the morning when I have some daylight. Well I’ll post a few pics. Tried to get pictures of the bushy algae but you can at least see what the rocks look like. Don’t think there’s much useful here. Unless somebody knows what this is. Might as well post it even if it might not be useful. Thanks.

 

[fachatga]

Sorry. Last thing. It’s a 100 gallon tank. In case anybody was going to ask. I’m done now.

 

[BostonReefer300]

Get a UV, but in the meantime...

Excellent thanks!