Dinoflagellates – Are You Tired Of Battling Altogether?

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ScottB

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Nope, nothing good to report. In the past two weeks I did an icp test. In the last 6 days I did a 36hr blackout except to feed. I refreshed my gac. Turned off gfo. Turned off water changes. Lowered the flow on the uv. Blew off rocks with a pump and then scrubbed the rocks with a toothbrush - lots of stubborn gha is still there but the 'dead' gha/dino stuff came off. It appears to be growing again. I've added filter floss, cleaned it nightly with hot water and peroxide. I've kept my same feeding schedule.

Results:
Corals are dead or dying. Some from the base, some from the middle, some from the tips. Some have white tips, some are brown with dino. Three sps that were happy pre-blackout are showing signs of stn. The Monti has lost color, bleached in areas, and looks sad. I have some bambam zoas and a fl ricordia mushroom that are happy (meh). Everything else is upset.

I tested po4 and no3 tonight. 15ppm no3 / 0.25 po4.

Here are the icp results-
Display
Test689410858_Results.jpeg


Rodi
Screenshot_20210617-212144.png

Screenshot_20210617-212151.png



I don't see anything that's off.

I can't win and I pretty much want to quit. This shouldn't be this hard for someone who's tried their heart out.
Don't freak out just yet. I've never had an ICP report Chlorine (Triton, ATI) so I have no idea what to make of that value. Found this on Hanna instruments website tho

Chlorine in Aquatic Systems​

Generally, municipal water has a relative chlorine level of 1.5 to 2.0 ppm out of the tap. Chlorine is a strong oxidant and can be lethal to most fish at level between 0.1-0.3 ppm. Although is its best to maintain levels below 0.001 to 0.003 ppm as health issues can arise in aquatic systems. Since chlorine is a great disinfectant, many beneficial bacterial strains in water or biological filter systems may be killed by its presence.

Fish may exhibit symptoms of overexposure to chlorine such as hyper activity, jumping out of the water, lateral recumbence and spasmic movements of the tail, fins or mouth. Chlorine overexposure of levels above 0.3 ppm in fish can also cause difficulties respiring, suffocation or in some cases, death. At a pH range of 6 to 7 hypochlorous acid (HOCl) is more predominant and is the most toxic form. As the water’s pH becomes greater than 7 more hypochlorite (OCl–) ions become present, and are less toxic compared to HOCl.

Chlorine can be removed from water by the use of strong aeration or activated carbon. Aging water will also work to remove chlorine as natural dissipation can occur after 24-48 hours. Sodium thiosulfate easily neutralizes chlorine, but chloramine is generally more difficult to get rid of.

Chloramine can be more difficult to remove compared to chlorine as it is less volatile. Chloramine is more toxic to fish. Water conditioners to detoxify chloramine generally use sodium hydroxymethanesulfonate which breaks apart the chloramine and converts the ammonia to ammonium, a less toxic ionized form.

Much attention is paid by aquarists to detoxify various forms of chlorine with commercial supplements known as water conditioners. Reverse osmosis/de-ionized water is also used to provide pure water samples to aquatic systems. Although these methods are used with relative success, measuring chlorine is still important to make sure that one is not harming their organisms. Sometimes RODI membranes will becomes less effective and water conditioners can expire, resulting in ineffective use. Thus regular monitoring of Chlorine in both the aquatic environment and the water source for your system is best practice.
 

ScottB

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Finally added a UV on Tuesday. Starting to see results finally but still struggling to keep my phosphates up. Tank is consuming it like crazy. Dosing 10mL a day of Tridsodium Phosphate.
It is binding to your depleted aragonite (rock, sand) and totally normal. Keep going. Keep measuring.
 

ggNoRe

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Nope, nothing good to report. In the past two weeks I did an icp test. In the last 6 days I did a 36hr blackout except to feed. I refreshed my gac. Turned off gfo. Turned off water changes. Lowered the flow on the uv. Blew off rocks with a pump and then scrubbed the rocks with a toothbrush - lots of stubborn gha is still there but the 'dead' gha/dino stuff came off. It appears to be growing again. I've added filter floss, cleaned it nightly with hot water and peroxide. I've kept my same feeding schedule.

Results:
Corals are dead or dying. Some from the base, some from the middle, some from the tips. Some have white tips, some are brown with dino. Three sps that were happy pre-blackout are showing signs of stn. The Monti has lost color, bleached in areas, and looks sad. I have some bambam zoas and a fl ricordia mushroom that are happy (meh). Everything else is upset.

I tested po4 and no3 tonight. 15ppm no3 / 0.25 po4.

Here are the icp results-
Display
Test689410858_Results.jpeg


Rodi
Screenshot_20210617-212144.png

Screenshot_20210617-212151.png



I don't see anything that's off.

I can't win and I pretty much want to quit. This shouldn't be this hard for someone who's tried their heart out.
You might want to try the elegant coral regimen. I'm doing it right now. Seems promising
 

Biff0rz

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@taricha you wanna confirm small cell plus a little ostreopsis on this video? I don't see anything in the ICP (linked below) I recognize as a problem, although I don't know the reference value for chlorine. Anybody have a reference value? That is a BIG number.

@Randy Holmes-Farley what do you make of a "Chlorine" value of 19,784 ppm? ATI and Triton don't report this measure (or did not used to) and I have no idea of a reference value.
The icp test site lists different reference values, choosing FL shows this:
1623991530484.png

I was shocked by it too, but since the reference number wasn't off, I didn't worry about it too much. All my fish seem fine, I would think they'd be dead if it was at a toxic level.
 
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ggNoRe

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I'll try and look that up, got a reference I can read? never heard of it.

Also there is a Facebook Dinoflagellates support group and this regimen is renown there to be the best tactic.

And there is a thread here dedicated to it as well: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/analyzing-a-bacterial-method-for-dinoflagellates-and-cyano.635165/

Also, did you used to frequent a forum called Livingreefs under the name Bifferwine?
 

Biff0rz

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Thanks, maybe I'll try that once the dinos are gone. Update, everything is looking worse. More corals bleaching, more white tips, more fading. Fun stuff. I saw a post somewhere talking about high alk causing white tips, I keep alk at 8 so I'm going to try and bring that down to 7. I sort of think something is consuming the alk and I'm getting false readings (maybe). Idk, it's something to try. Once all of my corals die, I'll probably do a week-long black-out, not sure if that'll kill all the gha thats growing or not. Sort of at a loss of what to do at this point. I'm debating a full reboot/restart or just quitting.
 

ScottB

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Another video. I think I have a few different types of dino. This was sampled from one of the rocks where lots of 'gha' grows then the tips of it look fuzzy/dead.

Good video. Still see some small cell amphids and some ostreopsis. I get the frustration for sure, but this is no reason to throw in the towel. Things will turn at some point.

Maybe you've been doing this all along, but heavy basting with a small powerhead is always a good idea. I did that along with running an in tank diatom canister filter to remove a lot of gunk.
 

taricha

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Another video. I think I have a few different types of dino. This was sampled from one of the rocks where lots of 'gha' grows then the tips of it look fuzzy/dead.
This is indeed derbesia (GHA) with Ostreopsis dinos, and not enough of anything else in this video to care about.

FYI, @ScottB the reported "chlorine" earlier is just a slightly confusing way of describing the chloride ion (Cl-) in saltwater. Somewhere around 19,000 ppm is the expected value for normal salinity.
 

taricha

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Blew off rocks with a pump and then scrubbed the rocks with a toothbrush - lots of stubborn gha is still there but the 'dead' gha/dino stuff came off. It appears to be growing again. I've added filter floss, cleaned it nightly with hot water and peroxide. I've kept my same feeding schedule.

Results:
Corals are dead or dying. Some from the base, some from the middle, some from the tips. Some have white tips, some are brown with dino. Three sps that were happy pre-blackout are showing signs of stn. The Monti has lost color, bleached in areas, and looks sad.
First, I'm really sorry you're dealing with this issue - it's super frustrating. The difficulty keeping corals alive and happy during a dino treatment is a constant reminder we don't have it all figured out.
One of the big drivers of nuisance growth (cyano and dinos) is stressed or dying algae. If you have a decent mass of GHA on the rocks then that can continue to fuel growth of some dinos. You are doing the right thing, trying to export as much as possible.
Filter floss can just be washed in tap water. h2o2 only if it makes you feel better :)
When you pull out the filter floss, is it colonized by noticeable brown material? If so that's showing you what's attaching to corals out of the water column.


I tested po4 and no3 tonight. 15ppm no3 / 0.25 po4.
These are fine and I wouldn't push either higher.
The nutrient combination that tends to stress corals the most is high NO3 with no PO4 (bleaching can be seen from this). Though you report bleaching, it seems these nutrients are not the cause.


Update, everything is looking worse. More corals bleaching, more white tips, more fading. Fun stuff. I saw a post somewhere talking about high alk causing white tips, I keep alk at 8 so I'm going to try and bring that down to 7.
fine to let alk go down to lower growth pressure on corals.
IT may be worth it to consider doing water changes for the sake of coral health and let the filter floss, UV, socks etc continue to work on lowering Dino population.
 

Biff0rz

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Good video. Still see some small cell amphids and some ostreopsis. I get the frustration for sure, but this is no reason to throw in the towel. Things will turn at some point.

Maybe you've been doing this all along, but heavy basting with a small powerhead is always a good idea. I did that along with running an in tank diatom canister filter to remove a lot of gunk.
How long is this road? I'm not seeing the light at the end of the tunnel.
Yea, I've been blowing off rocks, scrubbing with a tooth brush, and letting my roller filter grab everything.

Is there anything else I can be doing? As suggested I've turned the awc back on to help coral health.. But most are on their way out. The only thing not dying (yet) is softies. All sps have white/dead/dying spots. It sucks.
 

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How long is this road? I'm not seeing the light at the end of the tunnel.
Yea, I've been blowing off rocks, scrubbing with a tooth brush, and letting my roller filter grab everything.

Is there anything else I can be doing? As suggested I've turned the awc back on to help coral health.. But most are on their way out. The only thing not dying (yet) is softies. All sps have white/dead/dying spots. It sucks.
Been since November for me, with minimal improvement. I'm back to dosing silicates and anticipate this taking several more months, if it even works this time.
 

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Also there is a Facebook Dinoflagellates support group and this regimen is renown there to be the best tactic.
Yeah for Amphis and other non-Ostreopsis I’ve helped many people with Cruz’ method with very good results.

Documented on video (sorry Portuguese):

For Ostreopsis the oversized UV with adequate flow is still the better option.
 

ggNoRe

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Yeah for Amphis and other non-Ostreopsis I’ve helped many people with Cruz’ method with very good results.

Documented on video (sorry Portuguese):

For Ostreopsis the oversized UV with adequate flow is still the better option.
I'm about 10 days in since I started it and so far it seems to have worked very well when everything else failed. I would say I won't know for sure until at least one more month though after I get a couple more water changes in and see if the dinos come back or are gone for good.

This is the first time in 2 months (when I first got dinos) that I have full spectrum lighting both my LEDs and T5s and dinos don't break out like crazy.
 
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taricha

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I have used the Elegent corals dino treatment with very good success

For those doing this, I'd like to hear observations on how corals fare during the treatment.
It is a flood of Carbon and creates a bacterial bloom. Corals usually manage their own mucus/microbiome pretty well. Do they continue to stay in control during the intentional bloom?
 

Reef and Dive

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For those doing this, I'd like to hear observations on how corals fare during the treatment.
It is a flood of Carbon and creates a bacterial bloom. Corals usually manage their own mucus/microbiome pretty well. Do they continue to stay in control during the intentional bloom?
Corals managed pretty well in my case and other people I’ve helped with that protocol.
 

ggNoRe

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For those doing this, I'd like to hear observations on how corals fare during the treatment.
It is a flood of Carbon and creates a bacterial bloom. Corals usually manage their own mucus/microbiome pretty well. Do they continue to stay in control during the intentional bloom?
Before Dinos:
Dinos:
After DinoX I went out of town 7 days and came back to insane Cyano outbreak:
Used Chemiclean and Dinoflagellates came back:
One week after using Elegant Corals Regimen:
 
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