Dinoflagellates – Are You Tired Of Battling Altogether?

[Biff0rz]

Things still aren't better or even tracking towards better. All sps are dead. Softies are fine. Fish are fine. Lots of gha, lots of dead-ish/dino gha. This sucks. Hope is running out.

This was blown off yesterday.

All of these rocks were scrubbed with a tooth brush and blown off 2 days ago.

Sell it all keeps coming to mind. I guess I'm just so frustrated because I did everything I could to avoid these and still failed. And now I'm trying to remove them... And nothings happening.

 

[Reef and Dive]

Things still aren't better or even tracking towards better. All sps are dead. Softies are fine. Fish are fine. Lots of gha, lots of dead-ish/dino gha. This sucks. Hope is running out.

This was blown off yesterday.

All of these rocks were scrubbed with a tooth brush and blown off 2 days ago.

Sell it all keeps coming to mind. I guess I'm just so frustrated because I did everything I could to avoid these and still failed. And now I'm trying to remove them... And nothings happening.

Are you sure your problem are dinos?
Have you tried identifying on a microscope. It does not look like dinos to me… maybe trying fluconazole for green algae…

 

[Biff0rz]

Are you sure your problem are dinos?
Have you tried identifying on a microscope. It does not look like dinos to me… maybe trying fluconazole for green algae…

In previous posts it's dino and gha, used a scope

 

[Reef and Dive]

In previous posts it's dino and gha, used a scope

Righ now seems pretty dino clear

 

[Biff0rz]

Righ now seems pretty dino clear

I could scope it again? It looks exactly the same stuff as the last few times, and those were full of dino.

 

[Biff0rz]

Righ now seems pretty dino clear

I decided to humor myself, definitely looks like dino, possibly another type and worse than last time, sigh. cc: @ScottB

 

[Reef and Dive]

I decided to humor myself, definitely looks like dino, possibly another type and worse than last time, sigh. cc: @ScottB

That’s not a dino problem, definitely. Dinos are present in nearly 100% of the tank samples I examine. It is important to know who dominates the sample…

Your sample shows 3000% more green algae than dinoflagelates.

Your solution is fluconazole and nutrient export all the way, not the usual dino management…

 

[ggNoRe]

I feel your pain. Dinos are back again for me about 2 weeks after Elegant Corals Regimen. About 75% of my corals died (Mainly due to cyano bloom while I was out of town). The remaining 25% look like crap. Not giving up though. This round going with DinoX backdoored by a bacteria bloom ala elegant coral method with no skimmer for a couple weeks while all that's going down.

 

[Biff0rz]

That’s not a dino problem, definitely. Dinos are present in nearly 100% of the tank samples I examine. It is important to know who dominates the sample…

Your sample shows 3000% more green algae than dinoflagelates.

Your solution is fluconazole and nutrient export all the way, not the usual dino management…

Doesn't that treat bryopsis?

 

[Jilly92]

I ended up having great luck with a blackout and h2o2 for 2 weeks,. Finally allowed the other various algae get a foothold and knock it out. Was a pain for sure though

How long did you blackout for? How long are you dino free?

 

[Reef and Dive]

Doesn't that treat bryopsis?

That treats most green algae

 

[ScottB]

I decided to humor myself, definitely looks like dino, possibly another type and worse than last time, sigh. cc: @ScottB

Sorry but yeah, still seeing amphidinium. Not sure why these guys are so darn happy at your place, but a couple of months (at least) is not at all unusual for this species.

Just curious, do you measure pH at all? I ask only because I had my ostreopsis dinos try to make a run on my frag system (for the 3rd time) at around the same time the heat wave came through. With the house sealed up my ambient CO2 went from low 400s to mid 700s and my pH fell off a cliff. Then the dinos popped up.

Actually, now that your coral are gone (correct?) you are fairly free to attempt more aggressive treatment options that I would never otherwise recommend. Elegance Coral method is one, DINO-X (which is really an algaecide) is another, H2O2 potentially. Let's tag @taricha for some more imaginative ideas.

 

[taricha]

Your sample shows 3000% more green algae than dinoflagelates.

This is correct and helpful perspective.

This case is a good illustration of the issues fighting dinos.
Pushing nutrients very low can stress and kill "normal" algae (GHA etc). Stressed and dying algae release nutrients (Proteins, DOC) that can feed nuisance dinos and cyano.

So we remove the starvation conditions of P and N, the normal algae is less stressed, and doesn't feed dinos (as much). If there was only a small amount of algae to begin with, this can be successful.

And here's the limitation of the nutrient addition strategy, as @Biff0rz account shows. If there was already considerable algae, now we may be growing a bunch of GHA. This alone can be a stress for sensitive corals. Also note the annoying "doesn't feed dinos (as much)" qualifier - macroalgae of all kinds do release small amounts of DOC and proteins that can support dinos that grow on macros. That's the dinos normal niche in the wild.

Can we control the normal algae with herbivores? sometimes. but not always easily.
Can we manually export the algae? sometimes, but a look at the rocks in @Biff0rz tank shows how challenging manual removal would be.

Would we be better off with algicide: fluco, dinox, etc etc? Sometimes yes. Especially if the standing crop of gha is large and hard to remove. Will the die-off drive a new round of nuisance (dino, cyano) growth? yes. But maybe with manual removal of as much dead material as possible that can be shortened and lessened.

It's complicated.

 

[Reef and Dive]

I would like opinions of others on the group on a recent discussion on YT.

It has been argued that iron dosing and temp raising would help with dinos.

My perception based on reports is that iron dosing actually worsens the problem.

Taking conclusions about iron based on ICP findings also seems too dangerous to me, since it is so close the Limit of Detection on ICP-OES…

Temp raising also makes some species replicate more, so probably the temperature raising observation could be actually related to specific species.

This is the discussion on the subject, it starts at 1:08:00



On iron worsening the problem, some reports I found:

Iron, Silica, and Iodine and Dinoflagellates

The role of iron in the growth of dinoflagellates is well characterized, so nothing written here is novel- I simply wanted to validate a pet theory of mine and provide documentation in case anyone finds this post of any interest later. I set up an experiment* and dosed experimental containers...

www.reef2reef.com

Ostreopsis Dinoflagellates and TM All-for-Reef

Hey all! I am currently battling Ostreopsis dinos that seem resistant to UV. Ive beat them in the past in this same tank with this same UV but this time around the difference is that I am dosing all for reef. I know in the wild that dinos feed off of free iron and that AFR has iron in it and...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[Biff0rz]

That treats most green algae

Ok but I don't see how the gha is causing the problems with the sps corals.

Sorry but yeah, still seeing amphidinium. Not sure why these guys are so darn happy at your place, but a couple of months (at least) is not at all unusual for this species.

Blah. Anything I can do to speed it up?

Just curious, do you measure pH at all? I ask only because I had my ostreopsis dinos try to make a run on my frag system (for the 3rd time) at around the same time the heat wave came through. With the house sealed up my ambient CO2 went from low 400s to mid 700s and my pH fell off a cliff. Then the dinos popped up.

I recently tried messing with lighting. I have t5's and kessil a360's. I turned the t5's off for a few days. Ph dropped during that time. I turned t5's back on yesterday.

Actually, now that your coral are gone (correct?) you are fairly free to attempt more aggressive treatment options that I would never otherwise recommend. Elegance Coral method is one, DINO-X (which is really an algaecide) is another, H2O2 potentially. Let's tag @taricha for some more imaginative ideas.

All sps are bleached and basically dead. There is some life around the base/middle areas but almost all are frags. I don't think they will recover. I have two corals that are fine, some zoos and ric mushrooms. That's all that's really alive and well.

This is correct and helpful perspective.

This case is a good illustration of the issues fighting dinos.
Pushing nutrients very low can stress and kill "normal" algae (GHA etc). Stressed and dying algae release nutrients (Proteins, DOC) that can feed nuisance dinos and cyano.

So if I use fluconazole it'll cause more dino?

So we remove the starvation conditions of P and N, the normal algae is less stressed, and doesn't feed dinos (as much). If there was only a small amount of algae to begin with, this can be successful.

And here's the limitation of the nutrient addition strategy, as @Biff0rz account shows. If there was already considerable algae, now we may be growing a bunch of GHA. This alone can be a stress for sensitive corals. Also note the annoying "doesn't feed dinos (as much)" qualifier - macroalgae of all kinds do release small amounts of DOC and proteins that can support dinos that grow on macros. That's the dinos normal niche in the wild.

Note, my chaeto has melted. So are you also saying my situation is spiraling because there is too much gha?

Can we control the normal algae with herbivores? sometimes. but not always easily.
Can we manually export the algae? sometimes, but a look at the rocks in @Biff0rz tank shows how challenging manual removal would be.

The tangs don't even look at it. I have probably 100ish snails/crabs in Cuc, some have died, but they can't keep up. I've been manually removing and it keeps coming back, like lots of it.

Would we be better off with algicide: fluco, dinox, etc etc? Sometimes yes. Especially if the standing crop of gha is large and hard to remove. Will the die-off drive a new round of nuisance (dino, cyano) growth? yes. But maybe with manual removal of as much dead material as possible that can be shortened and lessened.

It's complicated.

Ok so... Nuke it with fluco and when the gha is shedding it'll feed dino more but if I can export it fast that'll shorten it. Since I already have a healthy dino population I might not notice much as the corals are dead.

Let me know if I'm off track, but, sounds like fluconazole is the next step, then lots of removal. I have a roller filter, so that helps a ton.

 

[BanjoBandito]

Ok but I don't see how the gha is causing the problems with the sps corals.


Blah. Anything I can do to speed it up?


I recently tried messing with lighting. I have t5's and kessil a360's. I turned the t5's off for a few days. Ph dropped during that time. I turned t5's back on yesterday.

All sps are bleached and basically dead. There is some life around the base/middle areas but almost all are frags. I don't think they will recover. I have two corals that are fine, some zoos and ric mushrooms. That's all that's really alive and well.


So if I use fluconazole it'll cause more dino?


Note, my chaeto has melted. So are you also saying my situation is spiraling because there is too much gha?


The tangs don't even look at it. I have probably 100ish snails/crabs in Cuc, some have died, but they can't keep up. I've been manually removing and it keeps coming back, like lots of it.


Ok so... Nuke it with fluco and when the gha is shedding it'll feed dino more but if I can export it fast that'll shorten it. Since I already have a healthy dino population I might not notice much as the corals are dead.

Let me know if I'm off track, but, sounds like fluconazole is the next step, then lots of removal. I have a roller filter, so that helps a ton.

At this point I'd RIP clean that sucker. Spray all the rocks with H202, rinse the sand and just put it back together. It's the only way in my opinion to save any livestock you have left. Good luck!

 

[Biff0rz]

At this point I'd RIP clean that sucker. Spray all the rocks with H202, rinse the sand and just put it back together. It's the only way in my opinion to save any livestock you have left. Good luck!

So you're saying my fish and cuc will all die from this? And are you saying to do a total tear down or just remove a handful of rocks at a time? If it's all at once and a full reboot.... Yea I'll probably just list everything.

 

[BanjoBandito]

So you're saying my fish and cuc will all die from this? And are you saying to do a total tear down or just remove a handful of rocks at a time? If it's all at once and a full reboot.... Yea I'll probably just list everything.

Track down Brandon429 on here. He's the RIP CLEAN master. lol. It's not that bad. It's a full day of work, but once it's done you'll have a beautiful clean tank and another shot at it. You won't need to cycle again. At this point you are so out of whack (if that stuff truly grew back in 2 days) that you need to re-establish baseline.

 

[BanjoBandito]

This hobby isn't for the faint of heart. It'll break you financially and mentally. Lucky for me I'm mentally ill and use the corporate card. AYYYYYYYYY-OOOOOOOOOO.

 

[Reef and Dive]

Ok but I don't see how the gha is causing the problems with the sps corals.

Neither those ocasional dinos would…

I don’t like to say this but: trust me, I’m quite used to those microscopic views and interpretations around dinos…