Dinoflagellates – Are You Tired Of Battling Altogether?

[Biff0rz]

Agree, with oversized UV and adequate flow Ostreopsis is nowadays the easiest to deal with… Maybe it will be easier when most of that GHA is gone…

Trying, hah. @ScottB how far down into the tank should the intake side of the UV pipe be? Does it matter?

 

[ScottB]

Trying, hah. @ScottB how far down into the tank should the intake side of the UV pipe be? Does it matter?

Well we are kinda getting into the area of nuance here in my experience. Best answer is "wherever they like to hang out" or "wherever they get basted to when basting". It feels like your are just hanging in happily with the GHA and not moving very much. Have you done a lights out already? How many hours? (I know. U prob already told me this.)

You can also add some manual removal technique with filter floss. I typically clamp some filter floss to the glass in high flow & light areas and the ostreos love to cling there. Rinse just before lights out in fresh water and ready for tomorrow's light cycle. Might have a picture. Yup here it is. I hung them all over the tank. Who doesn't have a thousand spare suction cups? Finally a use for them.

 

[Biff0rz]

Well we are kinda getting into the area of nuance here in my experience. Best answer is "wherever they like to hang out" or "wherever they get basted to when basting". It feels like your are just hanging in happily with the GHA and not moving very much. Have you done a lights out already? How many hours? (I know. U prob already told me this.)

You can also add some manual removal technique with filter floss. I typically clamp some filter floss to the glass in high flow & light areas and the ostreos love to cling there. Rinse just before lights out in fresh water and ready for tomorrow's light cycle. Might have a picture. Yup here it is. I hung them all over the tank. Who doesn't have a thousand spare suction cups? Finally a use for them.

I've done a 36h lights out. Should I do 72h? How does that affect the fish? I'm also concerned with what that'll do to my nitrates. Hanna said they are at 40ppm nyos is at 25ppm.

I have some filter floss hanging, not quite enough by the looks of it. I can hang more and clean it. I've noticed the dinos attach to it easily but it fills up quite fast.

 

[ScottB]

I've done a 36h lights out. Should I do 72h? How does that affect the fish? I'm also concerned with what that'll do to my nitrates. Hanna said they are at 40ppm nyos is at 25ppm.

I have some filter floss hanging, not quite enough by the looks of it. I can hang more and clean it. I've noticed the dinos attach to it easily but it fills up quite fast.

A couple days for the fish is no problem as long as they get enough light to get fed they don't really care. Fattens them up as long as they get a little cue about food availability. Think 3 months of covid lockdown for me & you.

If manual removal (filter floss) seems viable I would pound on it. I had four sheets of 4" X 12" flying in the flow for several weeks. I will never forget the smell of those things.

Nitrates that high...hmmm.. I was having to dose nitrates. Not as much as PO4 but still. Guess that is from the GHA. Is it rotting or growing? Did you do Fluconazole? Me forgets these things sorry. If you are in a Fluc treatment, then wait before another lights out until the Fluc period is done. Dinos and GHA combined come with an extra layer of complexity for me. Hard to solve for both at the same time. Always happy when @taricha chimes in on these tricky situations.

We both know your live rock is somewhat compromised with all this noise but in my opinion it is infinitely more valuable than a dead rock restart so I would hang in there.

 

[Biff0rz]

A couple days for the fish is no problem as long as they get enough light to get fed they don't really care. Fattens them up as long as they get a little cue about food availability. Think 3 months of covid lockdown for me & you.

If manual removal (filter floss) seems viable I would pound on it. I had four sheets of 4" X 12" flying in the flow for several weeks. I will never forget the smell of those things.

Nitrates that high...hmmm.. I was having to dose nitrates. Not as much as PO4 but still. Guess that is from the GHA. Is it rotting or growing? Did you do Fluconazole? Me forgets these things sorry. If you are in a Fluc treatment, then wait before another lights out until the Fluc period is done. Dinos and GHA combined come with an extra layer of complexity for me. Hard to solve for both at the same time. Always happy when @taricha chimes in on these tricky situations.

We both know your live rock is somewhat compromised with all this noise but in my opinion it is infinitely more valuable than a dead rock restart so I would hang in there.

10-4 on the fish

Yea, I need to get some more floss and I'll add it.

po4 is at 0.17. Some of the gha is rotting, not all of it. If any of it was growing, it stalled recently. I did do fluc. I recently turned my t5's off, should I turn them back on during the fluc treatment?

 

[Reef and Dive]

10-4 on the fish

Yea, I need to get some more floss and I'll add it.

po4 is at 0.17. Some of the gha is rotting, not all of it. If any of it was growing, it stalled recently. I did do fluc. I recently turned my t5's off, should I turn them back on during the fluc treatment?

It seems it is starting to work for the GHA… remove dying algae… T5 do as you wish, no big change…

 

[ScottB]

10-4 on the fish

Yea, I need to get some more floss and I'll add it.

po4 is at 0.17. Some of the gha is rotting, not all of it. If any of it was growing, it stalled recently. I did do fluc. I recently turned my t5's off, should I turn them back on during the fluc treatment?

If the Fluc is still running then YES it needs a full light session to do its work on the algae. It messes with the algae cell wall only during active photosynthesis. Manually remove as much of the algae as often as you can so the dying stuff doesn't shade the remaining algae. It will get progressively easier to rip out as the fluc breaks the stuff down.

Then swing back after with a blackout.

 

[One Fish]

What type of DINOS?

Looking for help ID suspected Dino and suggestions on treatment. 8 month old 40B with 29 sump. 4 fish, CUC, 2 stars, 1 BTA;1 AI prime. I have corals in QT waiting to go in. I upgraded tank size and sump with roller mat with new sand and my nutrients bottomed. Rust color in sand I originally thought was diatoms looks like Dinos under a scope.

temp 79-80
alk 8.1
Ph 8.0-8.1
Nitrates now 1.0 (dosing) Neonitrate
Phosphate 0.08

 

[Reef and Dive]

What type of DINOS?

Looking for help ID suspected Dino and suggestions on treatment. 8 month old 40B with 29 sump. 4 fish, CUC, 2 stars, 1 BTA;1 AI prime. I have corals in QT waiting to go in. I upgraded tank size and sump with roller mat with new sand and my nutrients bottomed. Rust color in sand I originally thought was diatoms looks like Dinos under a scope.

temp 79-80
alk 8.1
Ph 8.0-8.1
Nitrates now 1.0 (dosing) Neonitrate
Phosphate 0.08

Epicone morphology to me suggests Amphidinium

 

[taricha]

Probably amphidinium as suggested above, I'd love to see more pics / vids. It's unusual from what I can tell.

 

[Maximitsurugi]

@mcarroll and @ScottB I've been scouring this thread for the last 2 months during my battle with Dinos that dont go into the water column at night. I checked with a flashlight. They were having a rave atop my zoas at 3:30 am. I'm sure I even heard music.

What seemingly sent them on their way rather abruptly was the following. Now I know the consensus is to not change water and to have elevated nutrients but I had my nitrates at 40 and po4 at 1.5 but that did nothing. My acros were smothered and dying and I had finished a bottle of peroxide already. I'm not in the blackout camp and I didnt have silica easily available.

The one hypothesis I had was that my Tropic Marin Trace elements was maybe a little bit more than my tank needed when I mixed up my two part and something in it was fueling the dinos. So after 2 months of trying UV, peroxide etc, I went with my hunch and mixed a new batch of 2 part with no trace elements and did a half volume water change. The following day dinos were largely gone and I'm lucky enough not to see any two weeks later. Knock on wood.

I noticed 2 things.

1. I exposed the rock with most of the dinos to air for maybe 10 or so minutes. I kept my Acro frags wet. When I refilled the tank the dinos were weak and seemingly dying.

2. I use NSW so maybe I dodged the added trace elements found in bagged salt which leads us to not change water during dinos even if we would still have nutrients.

That's my experience. Thought I'd just log it here. Oh and high temp didnt work. My tank runs at 83-84 this time of year.

 

[Biff0rz]

I'm not sure how this could apply here but I found it super interesting.

Scientists make first ever observations of coral cells engulfing algae

Coral rely on a symbiotic relationship with algae to maintain good health. These algae live in their tissues and provide them with a source of sustenance and their colorful appearance. Severe bleaching events like those seen at Australia's Great Barrier Reef are grim evidence of what happens when…

newatlas.com

Single-celled photosynthetic algae called dinoflagellates were then added to the petri dish, and the scientists watched on as the coral cells grew finger-like protrusions that appeared to reach out them. Over the course of 30 minutes, around 40 percent of the coral cells proceeded to swallow them up.

 

[ggNoRe]

I finally beat Dinos. I suggest others to use this method as it really gets to the root of the problem.

 

[ScottB]

@mcarroll and @ScottB I've been scouring this thread for the last 2 months during my battle with Dinos that dont go into the water column at night. I checked with a flashlight. They were having a rave atop my zoas at 3:30 am. I'm sure I even heard music.

What seemingly sent them on their way rather abruptly was the following. Now I know the consensus is to not change water and to have elevated nutrients but I had my nitrates at 40 and po4 at 1.5 but that did nothing. My acros were smothered and dying and I had finished a bottle of peroxide already. I'm not in the blackout camp and I didnt have silica easily available.

The one hypothesis I had was that my Tropic Marin Trace elements was maybe a little bit more than my tank needed when I mixed up my two part and something in it was fueling the dinos. So after 2 months of trying UV, peroxide etc, I went with my hunch and mixed a new batch of 2 part with no trace elements and did a half volume water change. The following day dinos were largely gone and I'm lucky enough not to see any two weeks later. Knock on wood.

I noticed 2 things.

1. I exposed the rock with most of the dinos to air for maybe 10 or so minutes. I kept my Acro frags wet. When I refilled the tank the dinos were weak and seemingly dying.

2. I use NSW so maybe I dodged the added trace elements found in bagged salt which leads us to not change water during dinos even if we would still have nutrients.

That's my experience. Thought I'd just log it here. Oh and high temp didnt work. My tank runs at 83-84 this time of year.

Thanks for sharing this interesting observation. The dinos that *DON'T swim at night are often able to dominate for long periods of time despite our interventions. Always nice when your intuition serves you well.
So 3 factors were at play here, right?
a) Reduction of trace elements.
b) Introduction of NSW versus bagged.
c) Exposure of dinos to air.

Tagging @taricha

*Edit

 

[Reef and Dive]

Thanks for sharing this interesting observation. The dinos that swim at night are often able to dominate for long periods of time despite our interventions. Always nice when your intuition serves you well.
So 3 factors were at play here, right?
a) Reduction of trace elements.
b) Introduction of NSW versus bagged.
c) Exposure of dinos to air.

Tagging @taricha

Reduction of traces seems reasonable to me (avoiding WC and trace dosing, specially iron). Dinos wil consume traces and start to starve from it. The problem is that corals might also feel from this starvation.

NSW might bring living microorganisms for competition. Problem here is that there’s no selection, could be very good, or could bring in even other species of dinoflagellates.

Exposing dinos to air or RO water really kills them pretty easy, that’s not hard to do, it seems hard to keep tank conditions to avoid their proliferation.

I finally beat Dinos. I suggest others to use this method as it really gets to the root of the problem.

Bacterial bloom is an interesting method (Cruz, Elegant corals use that principle). There’s some danger that needs to be considered. I have done that in my tanks and from friends with good success for amphis. Not a great success for Ostreopsis (for that one, oversized UV seems by far the best method).

I do not believe too much dino-X has much to do with the success…

Over the course of 30 minutes, around 40 percent of the coral cells proceeded to swallow them up.

I don think those dinos are the same we talk here: those are actually zooxanthellae (or symbiodinium), they are actually dinoflagellates but from other species, not the ones we see as problems.

But in excess light conditions, when they are expelled, they recover their flagellae and microscopically look a lot like our dino pests. People very often make a confusion of this symbiodinium with the idea that “dinos being over corals”.

It has been demonstrated in recent studies that many corals can absorb different types of free floating symbiodinium clades, and this even give them some resistance against certain stressors (like high temperature). Unfortunatelly that’s not a universal rule: some coral species accept introduction of some symbiont species, but not all.

I hope I’m not being an intruder with this opinions, since @taricha was summoned, but I’m very fond of his opinions and corections.

 

[ggNoRe]

Reduction of traces seems reasonable to me (avoiding WC and trace dosing, specially iron). Dinos wil consume traces and start to starve from it. The problem is that corals might also feel from this starvation.

NSW might bring living microorganisms for competition. Problem here is that there’s no selection, could be very good, or could bring in even other species of dinoflagellates.

Exposing dinos to air or RO water really kills them pretty easy, that’s not hard to do, it seems hard to keep tank conditions to avoid their proliferation.



Bacterial bloom is an interesting method (Cruz, Elegant corals use that principle). There’s some danger that needs to be considered. I have done that in my tanks and from friends with good success for amphis. Not a great success for Ostreopsis (for that one, oversized UV seems by far the best method).

I do not believe too much dino-X has much to do with the success…



I don think those dinos are the same we talk here: those are actually zooxanthellae (or symbiodinium), they are actually dinoflagellates but from other species, not the ones we see as problems.

But in excess light conditions, when they are expelled, they recover their flagellae and microscopically look a lot like our dino pests. People very often make a confusion of this symbiodinium with the idea that “dinos being over corals”.

It has been demonstrated in recent studies that many corals can absorb different types of free floating symbiodinium clades, and this even give them some resistance against certain stressors (like high temperature). Unfortunatelly that’s not a universal rule: some coral species accept introduction of some symbiont species, but not all.

I hope I’m not being an intruder with this opinions, since @taricha was summoned, but I’m very fond of his opinions and corections.

So I just used Dino X as I had it on hand and it's an effortless way to rid the dinos. But I think any dinoflagellates extraction method will work with this plan such as manual removal, blackouts, or UV sterilizer.

From personal experience I see no harmful effects from using DinoX and found peroxide to be much harsher on my system.

The key is the artificial bacterial bloom to make sure you don't have another outbreak of dinoflagellates after you get rid of them.

Before doing this I got rid of dinoflagellates several times only for them to come back every time.

By dosing and making sure my phosphates and nitrates were fairly high (phosphates .1+/- nitrates 5-10+/-) and creating an artificial bacteria bloom (any bottle bac + vodka and preferably Dr Tims Waste Away as well) I was successful in the dinoflagellates not coming back this time around.

I would warn that I believe it is absolutely crucial that you add extra oxygenation to the system during this process to ensure the well being of your fish.

I think open conversation is great and my main goal is to hopefully help others so they don't lose thousands of dollars worth of corals they love like I did.

 

[Maximitsurugi]

Thanks for sharing this interesting observation. The dinos that *DON'T swim at night are often able to dominate for long periods of time despite our interventions. Always nice when your intuition serves you well.
So 3 factors were at play here, right?
a) Reduction of trace elements.
b) Introduction of NSW versus bagged.
c) Exposure of dinos to air.

Tagging @taricha

*Edit

Yep those 3. @mcarroll

I didnt have a microscope but I've had two types since my reefing days. The first was when I just started. That one was pale brown and snooty with bubbles. I squirted peroxide on that and it was almost instant death. This last one was pretty black with no snot. Reminded me of zoa ooze but almost web-like. It was all over my corals on the rocks. My tank is barebottom.

@Reef and Dive If I ever experience this last type again, I'll definitely do a drain and fill. If exposing them to air for even a few minutes KILLS them then it's worth it. I forgot to mention that I had been dosing MB7 without any luck for two months BUT I did squirt it all over the exposed rocks as a fail safe before I refilled.

As it regards diversity, my collected water is from a reef in Port Royal. I'm guessing seeing a few Staghorns and Elkhorns is a good sign for water quality.

 

[Frances Hunter]

I used Fauna Marin Dino X, followed direction to the letter. Worked great for me.

 

[Reef and Dive]

From personal experience I see no harmful effects from using DinoX and found peroxide to be much harsher on my system.

Sure I’ve also tested it with no clear adverse effects. But adverse effects have been reported.

It’s effects for dinos are questionable (some people noted good effects for amphis but for many people it did not solve the problem).

@Reef and Dive If I ever experience this last type again, I'll definitely do a drain and fill. If exposing them to air for even a few minutes KILLS them then it's worth it. I forgot to mention that I had been dosing MB7 without any luck for two months BUT I did squirt it all over the exposed rocks as a fail safe before I refilled

I believe it could help, it is just a major effort. In one tank I actually did it and removed sand, with coral losses, and dinos came back some weeks later.

As it regards diversity, my collected water is from a reef in Port Royal. I'm guessing seeing a few Staghorns and Elkhorns is a good sign for water quality.

Yes I actually consider it a good option to help with dinos, just pointed to the possible drawbacks. Their presence is not restricted to poor quality water, they are usually found on planktonic microscopic studies.

 

[Reef and Dive]

Also, I still have all this gha present. But I still believe all my corals are dead/dying because of dino not the gha... Unless those two are connected somehow?

Any updates on the GHA problem?