Dinoflagellates – Are You Tired Of Battling Altogether?

[mcarroll]

Thank you mcarroll, I can do some experiments if you want, my friend told me he will take my corals and also fish so I can try some other methods if you like to before I do a restart, I would like my English to be better I really dont know what PUAs are, its some kind of medicacion? If you want I do some experiments, tell me and I can try.

If you have the time and patience for it, I'd love to see the results (or lack ;Facepalm).

Check out the PUA link from my post if you can....I don't yet know anything more than that wikipedia article yet. I bumped into PUA's as just a mention in a review article, so they didn't comment much about it there....a bit more digging to do there.

 

[Reeferhigh]

mcarroll, not specifically related to the type we have in our tanks but related to dino, I have been trying to find anything that is a normal part of our tanks which we can increase that effects dinos. Copper may cause oxidative stress to the dino's? Also it would then be a treatment which could be used in a fish only system, not reef though because I'm gussing it will have to be pretty high.

https://www.google.com.au/search?q=...3j69i57j0l2.1439j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8


Jolanta, difference with copper is it should effect any of the bacteria in the tank as bleach or acid will. Hopefully it only effects the larger things like dino's. Plus copper is cheap.

 

[Reeferhigh]

Then use a poly filter to remove copper when treatment is finished.

 

[Jolanta]

mcarroll, not specifically related to the type we have in our tanks but related to dino, I have been trying to find anything that is a normal part of our tanks which we can increase that effects dinos. Copper may cause oxidative stress to the dino's? Also it would then be a treatment which could be used in a fish only system, not reef though because I'm gussing it will have to be pretty high.

https://www.google.com.au/search?q=...3j69i57j0l2.1439j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8


Jolanta, difference with copper is it should effect any of the bacteria in the tank as bleach or acid will. Hopefully it only effects the larger things like dino's. Plus copper is cheap.

If its possible to remove it after, I can try it , but I was reading some that used rock from fish only system and never was abble to have corals but I will do some reading today.

 

[mcarroll]

It sounds scary to me too, but it seems like all of the advice I can find on copper in reefs is hypothetical. Seems worthy of an experiment....but not with all your live rock at once I don't think.

 

[mcarroll]

https://www.google.com.au/search?q=...3j69i57j0l2.1439j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

I have to re-figure out how to do that µM<->ppm conversion every time...so how does 13.4 µM of "total copper" correspond to a typical therapeutic dose of Cu that we'd be likely to do?

 

[mcarroll]

I'm not sure that article suggests using copper vs our dino's (though I think it's still an interesting experiment to try on a small scale....maybe even in a cup of water with a dino sample in it)...

But I think the article does suggest why copper doesn't work 100% of the time – sounds like our copper tests might not be adequate to judge efficacy (they'er saying speciation of copper is more important than the dose amount id I'm reading correctly) so we may all be systematically under-dosing copper!

Very interesting!

 

[Reeferhigh]

I have to re-figure out how to do that µM<->ppm conversion every time...so how does 13.4 µM of "total copper" correspond to a typical therapeutic dose of Cu that we'd be likely to do?

Copper molar mass is 63.546g/mol

So 13.4 um of copper would be

63.546 x 13.4 / 1000 = 0.85 ppm

If my calculations are correct

 

[Reeferhigh]

Just saw the recommended copper dose for marine ich and it is 0.30ppm. So not viable with fish either, but would be interesting if it worked even having to remove live stock.

 

[mcarroll]

Yeah, .8 is wicked-high even for fish, let along corals or inverts....LOL.

That said, I'm not aware of anyone having tried a number that high in a real tank.

 

[Jolanta]

Yeah, .8 is wicked-high even for fish, let along corals or inverts....LOL.

That said, I'm not aware of anyone having tried a number that high in a real tank.

I can try to take some rock with dinos to a small tank I have and put copper in, what dose would you recomend to try?

Yesterday I mesured my phosphate agaian and it stays stable now at 0.039, before it was going down everytime dinos was taking over. Now I see lot of ciano and not so much dinos. I decided to make a crazy think and add 20 ml of phosphate to the tank and what surprised me was that I saw some polip extencion on my small live piece of sps, it didnt show its polyps about two months now and it was slowly stn. I will try to maintain higher phosphate levels for few days and see what happens. Tomorrow I give my fish and corals a friend so I can go crazy with phosphate additive and see what happens.

 

[mcarroll]

@Jolanta any changes are probably good changes. I wouldn't go too crazy – at least not all at once.

@Reeferhigh and anyone else: The toxic benthic dinoflagellates of the genus Ostreopsis in temperate areas: a review

A great summary with lots of particulars. Far from the final word on the subject, but gives us some great ideas.

More to come...

 

[mcarroll]

Essentially I ended up with very few surviving "Chrysophytes" with this method.

The pods have finally wiped out the last visual sign that I ever had chrysophytes BTW. I applied a little nutrients, some GFO and GAC, a couple of 50% water changes and manual removal for about a month as I recall....since then very close to zero effort...feeding is my main expenditure of effort at this point.

 

[Jolanta]

@Jolanta any changes are probably good changes. I wouldn't go too crazy – at least not all at once.

@Reeferhigh and anyone else: The toxic benthic dinoflagellates of the genus Ostreopsis in temperate areas: a review

A great summary with lots of particulars. Far from the final word on the subject, but gives us some great ideas.

More to come...

My actual readings of phosphate are 0.09 and my dinos got worst I think with ostreopsis its really another story. Today with the Heartaches I will trasport my fish and corals to a friend, and my tank will be rock only. I was thinking to make some experiments before bleaching all but I thing to catch my fish I will need to empty a lot my tank to make things easier and really dont want to use more salt to make new water to only see dinos get worst so maybe I will remove some small worst infected with dino rocks to a small tank I have and do my experiments there.
Reading the article you left it seems its better idea to not rise nutrients with ostreopsis, or am I understending it wrong?

 

[mcarroll]

Reading the article you left it seems its better idea to not rise nutrients with ostreopsis, or am I understending it wrong?

I think that's correct, but as you see there's also a lot more to the story. If you can cool the tank a bit, that might help. If you could slowly drop light levels, that might also help. But I wouldn't experiement on all possibilities at once unless you could make separate tanks for each one.

Remember that 3 meters apart is the recommended distance to avoid cross-contamination between tanks. Obviously each tank needs separate hardware and you need to be conscious about hands, etc, too.

 

[mcarroll]

Copper molar mass is 63.546g/mol

So 13.4 um of copper would be

63.546 x 13.4 / 1000 = 0.85 ppm

If my calculations are correct

Reminded me...
µmols to ppm help...

 

[Jolanta]

I think that's correct, but as you see there's also a lot more to the story. If you can cool the tank a bit, that might help. If you could slowly drop light levels, that might also help. But I wouldn't experiement on all possibilities at once unless you could make separate tanks for each one.

Remember that 3 meters apart is the recommended distance to avoid cross-contamination between tanks. Obviously each tank needs separate hardware and you need to be conscious about hands, etc, too.

I was thinking to make my experiments now when my rocks will be bleached, I would be really scary to have other tank with ostreopsis in the same house even at 100 m of distance, so I will make some experiments during my big tank is with sweet water with bleach, when I will start cycling I dont want to have more any ostreopsis. I hope with the quarantine they will never return.

 

[Lowefx]

Alright, I know I've watched your vid before, and I thought I even remembered going something like "Hey @taricha what do you think?"

That seems like a pretty hetrogenous community (dino's, diatoms, etc) compared to the outbreak photos and vids I've seen which are overall very homogenous.

So I'm not sure you're in the same boat as most of the other folks.

That said, it does look like some Ostreopsis wheeling around in that crowd, so I would take care not to starve the tank. (Only in favor of all their competitors and predators....not as a move vs Ostreopsis.)

But read on....



This "can be" okay, but is not in most folks's tanks. I'm willing to believe that if you follow Zeo's instructions carefully it can work.



This definitely doesn't sound like the "usual" dino case where the tank has been starved.

Can you post a full tank shot?
Has the lighting, flow and other aspects of the tank been pretty stable before and during the appearance of the dino's? What can you tell me about when they appreared?



Nothing in particular....they are plant fertilizers and/or stump remover products. Specracide Stump Remover Granules are pure KNO3. Beyond that Seachem and Brightwell both offer commercial nitrogen and phosphate additives – probably the way to go for most folks.

Not really a specific set of numbers either....it doesn't really sound like your system is starved. (Numbers are helpful, but don't tell the whole story.)

Show me a tank shot and a little more of the history (see questions above) and we're figure something out.

(And if you haven't already read through the links in the first post and maybe poked around related sections of my blog, I'd recommend both. )

Here us a picture from a few weeks ago. I've been busy moving to the new house. I removed 75% of sand for the move. When I set back up, I added 20lbs of live sand back into it. I'll try to get more details for you soon.

 

[Lowefx]

@Jolanta any changes are probably good changes. I wouldn't go too crazy – at least not all at once.

@Reeferhigh and anyone else: The toxic benthic dinoflagellates of the genus Ostreopsis in temperate areas: a review

A great summary with lots of particulars. Far from the final word on the subject, but gives us some great ideas.

More to come...

After some test tonight,
Ca 400
Mg1250
Alk 7.2
Ph .08
Nitrate 2ppm
Sg 1.025
Temp 79

Feel free to PM me.

 

[K. Steven]

After some test tonight,
Ca 400
Mg1250
Alk 7.2
Ph .08
Nitrate 2ppm
Sg 1.025
Temp 79

Feel free to PM me.

Those look more like diatoms and the new sand would explain it.