Dinoflagellates – Are You Tired Of Battling Altogether?

[Lowefx]

@Lowefx
Nassarius and the Conch are really detritus eaters – or even carnivores. Nassarius beat the hermits to the dead stuff in the wild. (Yes, someone has studied that. )

Only the real algae eaters are directly vulnerable.

I didn't see not N and P levels in those test results you posted. How are those?

Have all levels and the whole system been stable, or have things been happening?

No3-8ppm po4-.06ppm. Yes things are mostly stable. I manually dose dkh , have not dropped below 7dkh and mostly kept stable between 7.7 and 8.3. Doser is getting hooked up this weekend.
I will be doing another water change this weekend too. I did notice that the redish/brown active dinos color has not been around, but i do notice a blackish/grey dusting along the sanded now. I'm thinking it's dead dinos. (I HOPE). OTHER than that, just running a Cheato reactor, UV during the night, and zeovit products.

 

[mcarroll]

@Lowefx how about PO4?

 

[Lowefx]

@Lowefx how about PO4?

PO4 .06ppm

 

[reeferfoxx]

So I can't find any information on Coolia other than its morphology and regions where its found. Anyone have any idea what it likes?

 

[Beardo]

So I can't find any information on Coolia other than its morphology and regions where its found. Anyone have any idea what it likes?

This is one of the species that I was dealing with...still finding a few in my samples. From what I have read, they are often found alongside Ostreopsis and Prorocentrum in nature, so I would imagine conditions for Coolia to thrive would be similar to those species. The best tool in my battle has been a large UV unit along with blasting rocks daily after lights out to help get them in the water column. They do form cysts as well.

 

[mcarroll]

So I can't find any information on Coolia

Your right we haven't dug up a lot on them, but I think Taricha has experimented a fair amount...so try this search (also on the main page): coolia

(tell me if that goes to a search form or search results. It should be results. Click the search button if you get the form....if you get the form, it should be filled out already.)

 

[reeferfoxx]

Your right we haven't dug up a lot on them, but I think Taricha has experimented a fair amount...so try this search (also on the main page): coolia

(tell me if that goes to a search form or search results. It should be results. Click the search button if you get the form....if you get the form, it should be filled out already.)

It sent me to the search form.

So after looking at the videos provided yesterday, I believe I have the Coolia Monotis. From what I can tell is it mostly grows on the sandbed and covers the hair algae. Rocks have mostly been clean except for a few couple hours before lights out. Keep in mind though, the rocks are 65% covered in hair algae that is still growing. This strain appears to be different from my first round of dinos that where eradicated. Although puzzling, it's interesting that I have an assumed different strain from the first. After some research however, it's not that interesting but more frustrating to say the least.

Abstract
Coolia monotis is a potentially toxic epiphytic dinoflagellate widespread along the Mediterranean coasts, where it is frequently detected year round at low concentrations. However, it only proliferates recurrently in some localities. The North Lake of Tunis is one of the affected areas in the southwestern part of the Mediterranean Sea. This site is one of the most productive aquatic Tunisian areas (Recreational Fisheries and shellfish collecting). In the south part of this area of study, recurrent C. monotis proliferation (5 x10(5) cells per liter) took place in late spring and early summer of 2006. During this proliferation, the spatial distribution of C. monotis species, phytoplankton community, and abiotic factors were studied. The composition of the phytoplankton community exhibited a clear dominance of dinoflagellates over other genera. We suggest that proliferation development of C. monotis was linked to climatic conditions, water temperature (r = 0.24, p < 0.05) and high concentrations of nitrogenous nutrients, essentially NH(4)(+) (r = 0.18, p < 0.05) and NO(3)(-) (r = 0.21, p < 0.05).

Would this suggest that the increase of nutrients or more specifically NO3 spurred the growth?

 

[taricha]

Would this suggest that the increase of nutrients or more specifically NO3 spurred the growth?

Not really. We have to be careful about extrapolating what research in the open ocean about nutrients says about our systems. I couldn't find full article and the abstract didn't actually mention the levels of N that it says led to the increase of Coolia. Lots of literature depicts nutrient inputs fueling dino growth. But it's almost always talking about ocean-level inputs (really tiny) that still leaves a lot of organisms struggling for nutrients, but is enough for dinos to be happy.
Anyway, yeah. don't starve dinos in a tank. it only makes them angry.

From what I can tell is it mostly grows on the sandbed and covers the hair algae. Rocks have mostly been clean except for a few couple hours before lights out. Keep in mind though, the rocks are 65% covered in hair algae that is still growing. This strain appears to be different from my first round of dinos that where eradicated. Although puzzling, it's interesting that I have an assumed different strain from the first. After some research however, it's not that interesting but more frustrating to say the least.

I bet co-infections of multiple dino strains happen in about half the cases. Pretty common. Dinos are everywhere.
Coolia seems to show up and take over in lower flow settings than other kinds. It seems pretty comfortable on sandbed.

This is one of the species that I was dealing with...still finding a few in my samples. From what I have read, they are often found alongside Ostreopsis and Prorocentrum in nature, so I would imagine conditions for Coolia to thrive would be similar to those species. The best tool in my battle has been a large UV unit along with blasting rocks daily after lights out to help get them in the water column. They do form cysts as well.

This + elevate nutrients. Same experience here.
See in this thread: my post #166, post #218, and post #365
It was a co-infection of Ostreopsis, Prorocentrum, and Coolia. Same methods worked for all. elevate nutrients + what Beardo said.

To be honest most all these dinos respond to the same treatments. Only Large cell Amphidinium can't be targeted in the water column by UV/filtration - I've got interesting stuff to post on this kind coming up. Weirdly, Ostreopsis - the most feared - is the one that is most responsive. But the others all respond to varying degrees.

 

[reeferfoxx]

Not really. We have to be careful about extrapolating what research in the open ocean about nutrients says about our systems. I couldn't find full article and the abstract didn't actually mention the levels of N that it says led to the increase of Coolia. Lots of literature depicts nutrient inputs fueling dino growth. But it's almost always talking about ocean-level inputs (really tiny) that still leaves a lot of organisms struggling for nutrients, but is enough for dinos to be happy.
Anyway, yeah. don't starve dinos in a tank. it only makes them angry.


I bet co-infections of multiple dino strains happen in about half the cases. Pretty common. Dinos are everywhere.
Coolia seems to show up and take over in lower flow settings than other kinds. It seems pretty comfortable on sandbed.


This + elevate nutrients. Same experience here.
See in this thread: my post #166, post #218, and post #365
It was a co-infection of Ostreopsis, Prorocentrum, and Coolia. Same methods worked for all. elevate nutrients + what Beardo said.

To be honest most all these dinos respond to the same treatments. Only Large cell Amphidinium can't be targeted in the water column by UV/filtration - I've got interesting stuff to post on this kind coming up. Weirdly, Ostreopsis - the most feared - is the one that is most responsive. But the others all respond to varying degrees.

The tank and my coral are already growing macroalgae. I have 2 PP4 powerheads at 120% flow. There was some cyano mixed in on the slide. I have a 9w UV sterilizer thats been running for 2 weeks now. Skimming wet and no water changes going on 4 weeks. I am really reluctant on dosing anymore nutrients.

 

[reeferfoxx]

I did forget to mention that I removed matrix media a week ago. Back when I was battling the first round of assumed different dinos, matrix was mention but removal wasn't suggested. So as of late, I realized everyone was suggesting all bio media to be removed.

I did just do a n and p test. I haven't tested in a few weeks and I haven't dosed nutrients in maybe 4 or 5 weeks. I'm actually surprised at the numbers.

Po4 - 48ppb
No3 - 0.50ppm

So I think I will dose some n to get 5ppm BUT I'm very surprised that po4 came up without any intervention. It seems my dinos aren't nutrient hungry??

 

[taricha]

Ok, This post is on Large Cell Amphidinium. It gets its own separate posts because it doesn't go into the water like all the other dinos so it is not susceptible to UV killing or other methods targeting the water column.
It's the only kind that from what I've seen a somewhat different approach seems to be needed.
For more background see success reports vs this kind find post #4383, and #4394 here from bh750, and my posts #4397, and #774.

So recently I had another bout of Large Cell Amphidinium crop up in my tank. Like a year and a half after I got rid of them the first time. This time my N and P were not ever low. (I knew better than that).
but here are the things I was doing that were notable and possibly contributed.
I was experimenting with lots of live food particles in the water constantly, to see how system would respond. I was dosing 200mL of dense live phyto (T-Iso, and Nanno) and added cultured Rotifers and Tiny Copepods (tisbe) daily. I ran the skimmer with the cup off, so no particles were skimmed "out." I was also dosing organic Carbon (vinegar/vodka mix) and Sponge Power.

Eventually I had a section that looked like this (9/25)

Things I did/stopped doing:
Stopped Carbon dosing. Stopped live Phyto. Stopped Live Rotifers/Copepods. Stopped Sponge Power. Stopped Not Skimming (started back normal skimming). Changed GAC. Dosed teensy bit of P and N. (PO4 was already 0.09 went up to the 0.10-0.15 range, NO3 was between 2-5ppm - upped to 10ppm)

I added Chaeto balls right onto the sand/rock around the dino patches.

By 10/2 there was a slightly noticeable lightening of the brown patches on the sand, and by 10/9 the brown was gone.

Why did the Chaeto blobs push the amphidinium dinos out? 3 theories, all of which I've been thinking may be true:
1. Direct nutrient competition,
2. Shading from light
3. proximity to grazers.
number 2 seems less persuasive to me having seen amphidinium do just fine in a sample that was kept in total darkness for 14 days. On the other hand, the grazers clearly had a large effect. In my post #1122, you can see a little crustacean going to town on handfuls of the amphidinium.

At this point, it seems like blobs of chaeto (or other macro) right on the brown amphidinium sand may be worth trying more widely, since it's been repeatedly successful in my case.

 

[taricha]

Po4 - 48ppb
No3 - 0.50ppm

So I think I will dose some n to get 5ppm BUT I'm very surprised that po4 came up without any intervention. It seems my dinos aren't nutrient hungry??

I assume you got Phosphorus of 48ppb on a hannah ULR or similar, which converts to PO4 = 0.147 ppm. which is fine. Fix your N as you said. if you are growing algae successfully, then just dose when needed to keep P & N up in the target range.
Now work on selectively killing and exporting the dino cells, while supporting the growth of algae and other life.
Aim for power of around 1 watt of UV per 2 gal of tank water. Also see Beardo's comments about blasting surfaces during lights out, to encourage your coolia to go into the water column. Coolia need lots of encouragement.

 

[Orangutran]

Update: It's been over a month since dosing PO4 and I have to say that my tank is 90% better! What I have now on the sand bed is a very light brown dusting, it is probably diatoms because now the snails and potters are picking at it. There's a bit of slimy dino left in the back corner, but it's not bothering anything.

All creatures in my tank are healthier too--fish are not agitated, trochus and ceriths are cruising around (I actually thought the ceriths were all dead, have not seen them in months!), corals growing and puffy. And just last week, my clowns spawned for the first time! All this from doing nothing but bringing up my PO4. I don't have a ULR hanna tester, but my salifert is telling me approx .25ppm PO4 and 25ppm NO3.

Thank you @mcarroll @taricha for this thread!

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Why did the Chaeto blobs push the amphidinium dinos out? 3 theories, all of which I've been thinking may be true:
1. Direct nutrient competition,
2. Shading from light
3. proximity to grazers.

I do not know if this effect is real or not, but if it is, I'll add another possibility:

4. release of compounds from the macroalgae that deters dino growth

After all, macroalgae doesn't want dinos growing on it, and may have developed defenses, and such interactions are well known in the scientific literature:

Allelopathic interactions between the HAB dinoflagellate Ostreopsis cf. ovata and macroalgae
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1568988315001328

"The results indicated that all the investigated seaweeds exerted negative effects toward the benthic dinoflagellate O. cf. ovata."

 

[reeferfoxx]

I do not know if this effect is real or not, but if it is, I'll add another possibility:

4. release of compounds from the macroalgae that deters dino growth

After all, macroalgae doesn't want dinos growing on it, and may have developed defenses, and such interactions are well known in the scientific literature:

Allelopathic interactions between the HAB dinoflagellate Ostreopsis cf. ovata and macroalgae
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1568988315001328

"The results indicated that all the investigated seaweeds exerted negative effects toward the benthic dinoflagellate O. cf. ovata."

This might be my saving grace! My Coolia spp. Is covering GHA like a competitor. Though, again, nutrient depletion not as evident as other dino specie. Admittedly, I was reluctant to try cheato as it failed me in the past, due to cyano covering it. I will work on obtaining some now. Thanks.

 

[taricha]

I do not know if this effect is real or not, but if it is, I'll add another possibility:

4. release of compounds from the macroalgae that deters dino growth

After all, macroalgae doesn't want dinos growing on it, and may have developed defenses, and such interactions are well known in the scientific literature:

Allelopathic interactions between the HAB dinoflagellate Ostreopsis cf. ovata and macroalgae
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1568988315001328

"The results indicated that all the investigated seaweeds exerted negative effects toward the benthic dinoflagellate O. cf. ovata."

Thanks, I was being dumb. Allelopathy is very real, I just discounted it because... I mean it's chaeto, right? That stuff is totally chill. But I forgot that it can dominate as an invasive species in some places. Makes sense it would have chemical defenses.
The article is pretty great. Dictyota makes ostreopsis disappear - only cysts remain, and ulva has a pretty strong effect too.
Of course, understand this is escalating chemical warfare. Dictyota is nasty stuff, not much eats it, check a search on people trying to get rid of it. Ulva, I'd totally use in a tank, though.

Regarding algae as a defense against dinos, there are species (ostriopsis, prorocentrum, coolia to a lesser extent) that growing on macroalgae is their main thing they do in nature.
Large cell Amphidinium can't seem to do it. It's low toxin and the strains that can are all pretty toxic. I doubt that's coincidence. I strongly suspect that toxicity to keep predators away is necessary for any dino to succeed long term at colonizing as an algal epiphyte.

What I'm saying is, I'd really only consider direct algae contact as a measure against large cell amphidinium. There are other, better ways of cell removal though the water column vs the other kinds.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Thanks, I was being dumb. Allelopathy is very real, I just discounted it because... I mean it's chaeto, right? That stuff is totally chill. But I forgot that it can dominate as an invasive species in some places. Makes sense it would have chemical defenses.
The article is pretty great. Dictyota makes ostreopsis disappear - only cysts remain, and ulva has a pretty strong effect too.
Of course, understand this is escalating chemical warfare. Dictyota is nasty stuff, not much eats it, check a search on people trying to get rid of it. Ulva, I'd totally use in a tank, though.

Regarding algae as a defense against dinos, there are species (ostriopsis, prorocentrum, coolia to a lesser extent) that growing on macroalgae is their main thing they do in nature.
Large cell Amphidinium can't seem to do it. It's low toxin and the strains that can are all pretty toxic. I doubt that's coincidence. I strongly suspect that toxicity to keep predators away is necessary for any dino to succeed long term at colonizing as an algal epiphyte.

What I'm saying is, I'd really only consider direct algae contact as a measure against large cell amphidinium. There are other, better ways of cell removal though the water column vs the other kinds.

If we are someday able to find exactly what chemical is used, and assuming it isn't harmful to other organisms, perhaps it can be a direct treatment for dinos.

 

[reeferfoxx]

If we are someday able to find exactly what chemical is used, and assuming it isn't harmful to other organisms, perhaps it can be a direct treatment for dinos.

Could that be how Dino X works? Or are we to assume it's chemical? They say Dino X doesnt work with Amphidinium.

 

[taricha]

If we are someday able to find exactly what chemical is used, and assuming it isn't harmful to other organisms, perhaps it can be a direct treatment for dinos.

It's funny, if something was not quite right in a tank...The old answer was "check your parameters", the new trendy answer seems to be "check your elements on ICP analysis", but when something is off - these days my brain immediately jumps to "there's some invisible undetectable chemicals, some large special arrangements of very ordinary elements that's disturbing the peace"
In other words it's magic.

 

[tenurepro]

Regarding algae as a defense against dinos, there are species (ostriopsis, prorocentrum, coolia to a lesser extent) that growing on macroalgae is their main thing they do in nature.

That set up a light bulb in my head T; any refs for this. Been thinking a lot about what triggered my prorocentrum bloom... i take pics of my tank regularly and I can pinpoint my outbreak to a 2 week period... one of the changes that occurred during that period included adding a new ball of chaeto in my fuge, which withered away and got covered up by some slimy things, which I thought was just GHA... but not I wonder if it was the Dinos