Dinoflagellates – Are You Tired Of Battling Altogether?

[CoralWealth]

Are you harvesting lots of chaeto? How's the growth on it?

Yes I am, the growth is really good.

 

[CoralWealth]

Another thing I do not get, there is none of this in the sump it is just in the DT

 

[mcarroll]

Not sure what is going on but ever since I have gone on vacation, I have dino problems

What happened while on vacation? Any salinity or temperature swings? Or anything else? How long were you away?

Is alk 7 normal for you?

Nitrate are between 4-8
Phosphates are 0.03

Both of those are pretty low – possibly within the error rate of your test kit, which means those readings could be equal to zero. Especially if you weren't feeding the tank while you were out.

(that chart is just a shortcut for the math, BTW....should give you the same final ppm number.)

 

[IvanW]

Anyone got an answer for my post #133

 

[zachxlutz]

Another thing I do not get, there is none of this in the sump it is just in the DT

Same conditions. None in the sump but all over the place in the display. I can confidently say that raising my phosphates to .1 on a daily basis has the dinos on the run. Almost in the clear now. I'd give it a shot. Doesn't seem like your tank is getting enough nutrient import for your means of export.

 

[rockstarta78]

Following. Getting tired of fighting Dino

 

[mwilk19]

My dance with the dinos started in January. I was running a ULNS system using Aquaforest reef salt and the rest of their additives. About the time the dinos showed up I began to feel that my corals just weren't doing as well as they should. I switched to ESV salt and BRS 2 part. I started dosing stump remover and began using Vibrant to help get rid of some bubble algae that I had. Over the next two month the dinos began to subside and things were were really starting to take off. I restocked my tank with sps. I lost about 80% of my sticks in the first go around. I was never convinced that they wqere completely gone but there was no sign of them on the rocks or sand. About three weeks ago my salinity was low so I decided to mix up some salt to put in my top off container. I had some Aquaforest reef salt left so I figured I'd use that. Well, guess what is back? I've started dosing KNO3 and Neophos to get my nutrients up. Yesterday my Po4 measured 0 so I added Neophos. Today it measured .06 and my nitrates were at 3. What are we looking for a sweet spot for NO3 and PO4 to help beat back the dinos?

 

[taricha]

On target numbers, no firm ones yet, feedback is helpful here.
I imagine everyone's system is different, but in mine - when I have PO4 at 0.05 or below, dinos can grow. When it's closer to the 0.10 side, even adding dinos from an infected tank into the system, they take over.
NO3, I aim for 10, because 5 can go to zero in a couple of days in my tank.

 

[CoralWealth]

So I think I am going to juts continue what I am doing, which is blasting everything as much as possible to get all the dinos to hopefully stay in the filter socks. Replace the filter socks as soon as they look like theyre about to overflow. Also try to feed the tank more to raise my phosphates.

I am also thinking of lowering my main lighting period (sunpower 8x80w) to only 6 hours a day from today till I get back from vacation on July 2nd. Or don't you think lowering the main lighting will help? It just seems like that is the only time I notice them on the frags. After the T5s go off, I can blow them off the frags and they will not come back till the T5 comes on the next day. I look in my tank eveyr morning before work to see the PE with nights out as I think that is a great indicator of how healthy/happy everything is and they always have the polyps out on the tips where the dinos are with the lights on. Then as soon as the T5s come on, the polyps on some tips go in and the dinos go on the tips.

 

[taricha]

oops, left out a word and said opposite. this is what I meant to say.

...but in mine - when I have PO4 at 0.05 or below, dinos can grow. When it's closer to the 0.10 side, even adding dinos from an infected tank into the system, they CAN'T take over.

 

[zachxlutz]

So I think I am going to just continue what I am doing, which is blasting everything as much as possible to get all the dinos to hopefully stay in the filter socks. Replace the filter socks as soon as they look like they're about to overflow. Also try to feed the tank more to raise my phosphates.

I am also thinking of lowering my main lighting period (sunpower 8x80w) to only 6 hours a day from today till I get back from vacation on July 2nd. Or don't you think lowering the main lighting will help? It just seems like that is the only time I notice them on the frags. After the T5s go off, I can blow them off the frags and they will not come back till the T5 comes on the next day. I look in my tank every morning before work to see the PE with nights out as I think that is a great indicator of how healthy/happy everything is and they always have the polyps out on the tips where the dinos are with the lights on. Then as soon as the T5s come on, the polyps on some tips go in and the dinos go on the tips.

Sounds like you're on the right path. I didn't mention it earlier but I did raise up my 8x54w T5 lights about 8" higher and reduced my photoperiod by 30 minutes... not as a result of the dinos but as a result of getting a PAR meter and finding out I was blasting 500+ PAR throughout the tank and I wanted to get closer to peaking at 350 at the top of the live rock. Not sure how this has impacted the dinos, but I think the coral appreciate it.

Regarding the dinos going away with lights off... same boat. I could blow everything off after the main channel kicked off and only 2x54w (40-50 PAR) and nothing would reappear until the 8x54 kick on the next day.

I'd really consider giving PO4 dosing a shot. Like @taricha just commented, raising the PO4 up to .1 is helping their tank and it's helping mine, as well.

 

[CoralWealth]

Sounds like you're on the right path. I didn't mention it earlier but I did raise up my 8x54w T5 lights about 8" higher and reduced my photoperiod by 30 minutes... not as a result of the dinos but as a result of getting a PAR meter and finding out I was blasting 500+ PAR throughout the tank and I wanted to get closer to peaking at 350 at the top of the live rock. Not sure how this has impacted the dinos, but I think the coral appreciate it.

Regarding the dinos going away with lights off... same boat. I could blow everything off after the main channel kicked off and only 2x54w (40-50 PAR) and nothing would reappear until the 8x54 kick on the next day.

I'd really consider giving PO4 dosing a shot. Like @taricha just commented, raising the PO4 up to .1 is helping their tank and it's helping mine, as well.

I am going to start to feed more and try to raise P04 the nature way instead of dosing stuff. If I cannot raise it that way and still have dinos when I come back from vacation then I am going to go into a more radical approach.

 

[zachxlutz]

I am going to start to feed more and try to raise P04 the nature way instead of dosing stuff. If I cannot raise it that way and still have dinos when I come back from vacation then I am going to go into a more radical approach.

Sounds like a good approach, overfeeding didn't really work for me so I had to resort to additive dosing.

 

[K. Steven]

Sounds like a good approach, overfeeding didn't really work for me so I had to resort to additive dosing.

Same for me. I had a nutrient imbalance (high NO3, very low PO4) and feeding more couldn't correct it. Ostreopsis actually got worse when I started feeding more. I believe they thrive in a high NO3, low PO4 environment, so dosing PO4 itself was the only way to add PO4 without also adding NO3.

 

[taricha]

I am going to start to feed more and try to raise P04 the nature way instead of dosing stuff.

Sounds like a good approach, overfeeding didn't really work for me so I had to resort to additive dosing.

Same for me. I had a nutrient imbalance (high NO3, very low PO4) and feeding more couldn't correct it. Ostreopsis actually got worse when I started feeding more.

Not all sources of nutrients are the same. Some published lit suggests Dinos are good at uptaking complex (organic) forms of N, and less good - relatively at taking in simple (inorganic) forms. Green algae is the reverse - better at taking the simple stuff, and worse at the complex organic forms of N. And it looks like the story may be similar with P.
So you might find that for Nutrient elevation - dosing simple things rather than feeding - works better at disfavoring Dinos and favoring other things.
Anecdotes like Zach and Steven, among others point this way, too.

 

[zachxlutz]

Not all sources of nutrients are the same. Some published lit suggests Dinos are good at uptaking complex (organic) forms of N, and less good - relatively at taking in simple (inorganic) forms. Green algae is the reverse - better at taking the simple stuff, and worse at the complex organic forms of N. And it looks like the story may be similar with P.
So you might find that for Nutrient elevation - dosing simple things rather than feeding - works better at disfavoring Dinos and favoring other things.
Anecdotes like Zach and Steven, among others point this way, too.

Interesting!

 

[CoralWealth]

Not all sources of nutrients are the same. Some published lit suggests Dinos are good at uptaking complex (organic) forms of N, and less good - relatively at taking in simple (inorganic) forms. Green algae is the reverse - better at taking the simple stuff, and worse at the complex organic forms of N. And it looks like the story may be similar with P.
So you might find that for Nutrient elevation - dosing simple things rather than feeding - works better at disfavoring Dinos and favoring other things.
Anecdotes like Zach and Steven, among others point this way, too.

This is very interesting, do you have any links to that stuff?

Also what products do you guys recommend to dose to raise phosphates? I will do some research. I do have a gallon of acropower that I am considering to put back on my dosing pump

 

[zachxlutz]

This is very interesting, do you have any links to that stuff?

Also what products do you guys recommend to dose to raise phosphates? I will do some research. I do have a gallon of acropower that I am considering to put back on my dosing pump

I'm using AquaVitro Activate but many others use Seachem Flourish Phosphate. I'm dosing Acropower as well, Randy Holmes-Farley has suggested it's a good addition for tanks struggling with low nutrients. Seems to help w/ polyp extension, although it's tough to point directly to that as I only started once I realized my PO4 levels were dangerously low.

 

[taricha]

This is very interesting, do you have any links to that stuff?

This is from a convo I had with @mcarroll

First, on the macroalgaes - yes. NH4, NO3, Aminos is the order of preference, and fast growing algae can really ramp up their NH4 uptake if the opportunity presents itself.
This paper: "Uptake of urea and amino acids by the macroalgae Ulva lactuca (Chlorophyta) and Gracilaria vermiculophylla (Rhodophyta)"
has some really interesting stuff. One takeaway is that Amino acids get uptaken faster (generally) if they have a smaller side-chain. (see fig 3)
The paper talks about the algae having to break down the amino for absorption to get the ammonia part it wants. makes sense.

That makes sense. The dino part is weird though.
From the "putting the N in dinos" paper [listed in OPs 1st post]

"Another tendency in dinoflagellates is inhibition of NO−3 uptake when in the presence of NH+4... Curiously, different blooming populations of dinoflagellates were found to have high uptake rates for urea and/or amino acids, and these rates were always higher than the rates for NO−3 uptake. In L. polyedrum, the urea uptake rate was also about 2 times more than that of NH+4, even if environmental urea concentrations were less than NH+4. Taken together, these observations suggest that dinoflagellates possess a full suite of transporters for inorganic N and organic N forms...."

Dinos better at taking up big organic N forms than straight ammonia? Super weird.

So Algae preference: Ammonia, Nitrate, Aminos
Dino preference: Aminos, Ammonia (as long as it's tiny), Nitrate

Beware Acropower (Amino Acids) in a tank with dinos. In a tiny test tank I had a mix of Dinos and macroalgae, So I dosed acropower to test the above - and the macros faded, and dinos dominated.

Edit: Simple sources of N - KNO3, Simple sources of P - Seachem Flourish Phosphorus - derived from Potassium phosphate.

 

[K. Steven]

I'm using Seachem Flourish Phosphorus and testing every few days to maintain PO4.

I began with the "feed more" approach as well, but my Ostreopsis got much worse. It wasn't until I tested that I noticed I had high NO3 (25 ppm) and very low PO4 (near zero). Since dosing PO4, no Ostreopsis mucus strings are visible in the display. They used to show up minutes after lights went on, and now they aren't even visible after 10 hours of light.

Hope this helps as it seems you may be experiencing a very similar scenario.