Dinoflagellates – Are You Tired Of Battling Altogether?

[Breadman03]

I have been battling against various crud for a while. Familiar story, I think: started with dry white dead rock, ran zero nitrates and phosphates for too long and opportunistic organisms took over. Once I realized I was too low on nitrates and phosphates, I started dosing both. I have kept 0.04 to .1 ppm phosphate and 5 ppm nitrate for a few weeks now ands I am seeing positive changes, I think. The original light brown wispy Dinos are gone, to be replaced by some red Cyano and (most prominently) a rusty brown stringy something. I have some pictures I would appreciate some hep with.

I am using an antique early 1880s Yawman and Erbe Nonpareil microscope that was my grandfather's (he was a microbiologist). It is a lot of fun using it after all these years for what it was intended. It forms a really nice image but it is dreadfully difficult to take a picture through it as I think the eye-relief is really low. Anyways please take a look. I see Dinos I think in both images, but it is not the predominant species for sure. What are the connected rod-like creatures? Also, in the second image, is that blue-green thread Cyano?

Thanks for your help. This thread has been a great resource in my battle.

The scope is cool, but your family history makes that really awesome. Some of my favorite tools are standard Sears stuff that my Grandpop worked with for decades. As for taking photos, you might be able to have a toolmaker fab up a cradle of sorts for a camera if you can get the necessary measurements.

 

[Rivic]

jerks are back. Confirming this is still all Prorocentrum. Also, how long should I wait without doing water changes? My phosphates are pretty high around .28 and nitrates 20. If I do a big WC while exporting Dino’s and running UV 24/7 with lights out would that be a good idea?

 

[icedgxe]

I got a better picture and a video to see if that helps get an ID.

 

[saltyhog]

I got a better picture and a video to see if that helps get an ID.

Ostreopsis my friend. You're in luck. Those are very susceptible to UV!

 

[icedgxe]

Ostreopsis my friend. You're in luck. Those are very susceptible to UV!

Thank you! That confirmed my suspicions already have an Aqua UV ready to go. Just need to hook it up. Is it necessary to run carbon at the same time?

 

[ScottB]

It is the common advice to run carbon. Ostreopsis are known toxin producers -- not that I had much/any coral mortality or ever "felt" the presence of toxins.

I ran carbon to help knock down the particular smell the ostreos created in my tanks.

 

[icedgxe]

It is the common advice to run carbon. Ostreopsis are known toxin producers -- not that I had much/any coral mortality or ever "felt" the presence of toxins.

I ran carbon to help knock down the particular smell the ostreos created in my tanks.

Thanks, I will pick some up and run it just in case.

 

[Rivic]

Is there a consensus on skimming? Wet, dry or skimmer off all together? I considered turning mine off to assist with dirtying the tank some but my phosphates and nitrates are already elevated yet the Dino’s persist.

 

[saltyhog]

Thank you! That confirmed my suspicions already have an Aqua UV ready to go. Just need to hook it up. Is it necessary to run carbon at the same time?

I had significant SPS loss and lots of mad zoas from the toxins until I started running carbon. Even then if the dinos are actually on the coral the carbon won't prevent loss. Blow the coral off with a turkey baster anytime you see dinos on coral.

 

[Tjm23slo]

Who's implemented this method with success? How did it go, how many rounds did it take, did you make any modifications to it?

I recently ran the regime/protocol with seeming good success at gay 16. Waiting on day 40 to say it really worked. Seems to work well on Amphidinium.

 

[ScottB]

Who's implemented this method with success? How did it go, how many rounds did it take, did you make any modifications to it?

I have seen this a dozen times or more here, and I too am curious. Skeptical but curious. In a way it makes some sense in that you are constantly destabilizing in order to ruin the dino dominance. Add bacteria, then inhibit bacteria. Add, inhibit. Repeat. It also incorporates pieces (aeration, bacteria/carbon, H2O2) that have many old and new school proponents with accompanying logic that I find appealing.

On the down side, it does not distinguish treatment protocols for different species. I also wish it documented parameter outcomes to expect. What is happening with nutrient? Do I have ranges/targets?

If there is ONE thing I have learned over the last n years, it is that element & nutrient instability is trouble for SPS corals in my systems. Killing my SPS corals while killing dinos is a loss. I don't need numbers when there is peace; I just look at the corals. When I have messed up and the system is noisy, I desire some range guidance while pushing & pulling levers.

For ostreopsis at least (admittedly the easiest) I will continue to follow the advice provided here +7000 posts ago.

 

[Darth.Daddy12]

I’m going to skip all 391 pages on this ansbsay the overwhelming majority of dino cases come from dry rock and sand setups. It’s very very rare to have Dino in a tank using wet rock and live sand. I think there is something to be said for that. Deal with a few minor pests din the begaining of Dino at then end.. I’ve never had Dino but I’ve also never setup a tank wo live wet rock, dsb, and live sand. I’m interested to know if anyone else has noticed similar results as the few people I know and talk to also still use some sort of finer sand min 2” if not 4” thick wet rock and live sand as at lest a seeding portion to a sand bed. None of us have ever had this issue. I used to tho k it was a reef only issue but now I see it popping up in high nutrient Fowler tanks as well. Most of the time the story is the same.. reef saver type rock and regular sand for start up.

 

[Darth.Daddy12]

I’m going to skip all 391 pages on this ansbsay the overwhelming majority of dino cases come from dry rock and sand setups. It’s very very rare to have Dino in a tank using wet rock and live sand. I think there is something to be said for that. Deal with a few minor pests din the begaining of Dino at then end.. I’ve never had Dino but I’ve also never setup a tank wo live wet rock, dsb, and live sand. I’m interested to know if anyone else has noticed similar results as the few people I know and talk to also still use some sort of finer sand min 2” if not 4” thick wet rock and live sand as at lest a seeding portion to a sand bed. None of us have ever had this issue. I used to tho k it was a reef only issue but now I see it popping up in high nutrient Fowler tanks as well. Most of the time the story is the same.. reef saver type rock and regular sand for start up.

As for ridding it.. I’ve seen a lot of recent reports advocating for bubble scrubbing that are hard to ignore as bubble scrubbing is so rare and controversial to start with yet compare that with recent success stories and well its kind of an over wheleming % of success.

 

[Tjm23slo]

On the down side, it does not distinguish treatment protocols for different species. I also wish it documented parameter outcomes to expect. What is happening with nutrient? Do I have ranges/targets?

This is very good to target Amphidinium. Cruz developed it with mature SPS tanks in mind. The theory behind it is to reset you bacteria to normal levels. It creates a bacteria storm where your corals stop consuming anything (side effect). But by day 7 your looking at NO3 ~0 and PO4 around 0. Day 8 is bring the system back to desired nutrient levels.

The micro bubbling is to increase oxygen in the water and to help remove so of the coral waste

C02 in theory is another Dino food. Trying to increase oxygen while pushing out CO2. In many cases having a placid water surface while bubbling is desire as to not degasse the Oxygen.

I have heard of people losing some coral or fish, I’m not so sure how healthy the were prior to regime/protocol.

UV is the least intrusive way to kill or ****** most Dino’s, so I think this is a good course of action. 2 weeks UV to kill of most Dino’s the run Cruz method to go after Amphidinium and reset bacteria in the tank.

I would love to see if @taricha would he interested in testing this out. I

I have run the protocol and thought I lost a firefish, but I found him in my in tank sump. now I don’t have higher corals in my tank, but do have an acro an Anacro, 2 birds nests, Favia, goniapora, Duncan, Blasto, emerald crabs, banded shrimp, snails, Zoas, other LPS. Nothing died. August 8 was Day 1 and as of August 24 I have no Dino’s. A little cyano and a big diatom bloom wit green algae. All corals with polyps I use to see extend as extending again and in some cases more than before. Not selling just reporting.

 

[Tjm23slo]

On the down side, it does not distinguish treatment protocols for different species. I also wish it documented parameter outcomes to expect. What is happening with nutrient? Do I have ranges/targets?

If there is ONE thing I have learned over the last n years, it is that element & nutrient instability is trouble for SPS corals in my systems. Killing my SPS corals while killing dinos is a loss. I don't need numbers when there is peace; I just look at the corals. When I have messed up and the system is noisy, I desire some range guidance while pushing & pulling levers.

He has a Facebook group. Feel free to join and ask away. I answer question based on my experience, but Cruz is open to discussion and what to watch out for or what he has seen as success. If you get too deep where it’s easier to talk, he will call. He has been helpful to me.

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[ScottB]

My experience kinda fits your theory.

My display is old rock (tons, plus Marine Pure block) and live sand and a ton of fish. Nutrients very low but >0. No (knocking on my head now...) dino issues.

My frag system (120G now 160G) had limited live rock, no sand, and only 8" X 8" X 8" mature marine pure block. Half the bioload of my display. I find it hard in this system to keep nutrients in range, and have had dinos.

Right now, I am just adding fish so that I can stop dosing NO3 and PO4.

 

[Tjm23slo]

My experience kinda fits your theory.

My display is old rock (tons, plus Marine Pure block) and live sand and a ton of fish. Nutrients very low but >0. No (knocking on my head now...) dino issues.

My frag system (120G now 160G) had limited live rock, no sand, and only 8" X 8" X 8" mature marine pure block. Half the bioload of my display. I find it hard in this system to keep nutrients in range, and have had dinos.

Right now, I am just adding fish so that I can stop dosing NO3 and PO4.

Another theory or rule of thumb I picked up and I am trying to follow it to see if I can semi validate for my system and it makes sense is Frozen food for NO3 and dry food for PO4. If nutrients drop, cut PO4 reducing media if running. adjust the skimmer hours if skimmer at 0 hours and still an issue, cut hours on algae reactor lighting. If lighting at near 0 . Add more food or use FaStart-M

If po4 too high feed frozen until PO4 comes down. Is po4 drops feed dry.


So far working out well for a month. Need longer to prove. Or disprove.

 

[jazzdude87]

Hey R2R Dino Thread. I'm pretty sure I'm now battling amphidinium. I've attached below the video I took from a microscope evaluation of a sample of the brown sand bed goop this afternoon. My thread on the issue with more explanation of tank parameters and pictures is listed below as well for anyone interested in the past few days of figuring this out. With that said, if someone here is able to confirm this is in fact amphidinium vs something else that would be helpful. Thanks to @Beardo who had posted to my previous thread and had helpful media files on his profile that led me to believe I've got large cell amphidinium. I found the dedicated amphidinium thread that @taricha created and have started reading through it this evening. Sounds like this is a long-term battle if it is indeed amphidinium.

Cyano vs diatoms vs dinos

Well, the Reefer 250 (54 gallon display, 11 gallon sump, 3 gallon refugium with sea lettuce that grows like a weed and requires harvesting every two weeks which seems to be keeping phosphate at 0 and hoping to be a safe haven for pods) tank is only 3 months old, and it never really had a cyano...

www.reef2reef.com

Thanks in advance for your thoughts.

 

[jazzdude87]

For full disclosure, @Beardo believes this to be prorocentrum after viewing my images/videos on the forum listed above. I sure hope that he's right as it seems that this has a more proven track record in regards to treatment. Thanks again, @Beardo!

 

[jazzdude87]

I pulled some sludge off of one of my snails this evening and put it under a microscope. It appears to me to be a mix of the previously demonstrated dino (probably prorocentrum?) and another type that seems to spin around in circles with more of a teardrop appearance. I probably shoudn't be surprised that there are multiple types of dinos as the conditions have been right for them, but am bummed nonetheless. ID would be helpful if people have opinions.

I'm continuing to dose phosphate and nitrate. Phos back down to 0, so will be dosing twice a day starting tomorrow to try to get levels higher for biodiversity. While it hasn't yet taken over the tank, I'm concerned that I've caught it too late to turn it around before it does...